MBTA Winter 2015: Failure and Recovery
- Thread starter Jahvon09
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 5,599
- Reaction score
- 2,701
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
After noting that wind and gravity are huge helps clearing bridges (Longfellow), viaducts (Lechmere) and Els (1978's Orange) I am thinking that this must be atleast part of Chicago's secret: near 90% tunnel or El (including berms) maybe 9% surface, and near 0% trenched.
After noting that wind and gravity are huge helps clearing bridges (Longfellow), viaducts (Lechmere) and Els (1978's Orange) I am thinking that this must be atleast part of Chicago's secret: near 90% tunnel or El (including berms) maybe 9% surface, and near 0% trenched.
winstonoboogie
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2012
- Messages
- 541
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
The entire Blue Line and the Riverside D-Line were in operation today. The MBTA was conservative and stated Sunday night that Blue would only run from Airport to Bowdoin and D-line would be bus, but in fact train service was operating on both from the start of service Monday. Both lines operate on long surface sections. Unlike the surface Red and Orange line however, both lines use overhead wire on the surface and not third-rail. In fact, I would guess the MBTA was conservative about what they could run Sunday night in case the high winds caused wire damage, but that did not happen.
The private right-of-way of the D-line actually helps it compared to B, C, and E, as it avoids the problem of plowed snow from roadway plows blocking the lines at intersections.
The entire Blue Line and the Riverside D-Line were in operation today. The MBTA was conservative and stated Sunday night that Blue would only run from Airport to Bowdoin and D-line would be bus, but in fact train service was operating on both from the start of service Monday. Both lines operate on long surface sections. Unlike the surface Red and Orange line however, both lines use overhead wire on the surface and not third-rail. In fact, I would guess the MBTA was conservative about what they could run Sunday night in case the high winds caused wire damage, but that did not happen.
The private right-of-way of the D-line actually helps it compared to B, C, and E, as it avoids the problem of plowed snow from roadway plows blocking the lines at intersections.
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
Latest update: http://mbta.com/winter/
I guess the "B" branch is just ... non-existent ... now?
Latest update: http://mbta.com/winter/
I guess the "B" branch is just ... non-existent ... now?
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
I guess on the flipside too, the D branch doesn't fair too well in hurricanes when trees take down the wires.
Would you say then it would be a worthwhile investment to switch to pantograph on the RL & OL outdoor portions? Is this something that CNR could theoretically implement in the new order or would a substantial redesign be required?
I guess on the flipside too, the D branch doesn't fair too well in hurricanes when trees take down the wires.
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
Are the trains running with specific destination signs? Could be some good opportunities to get some rare pictures! Sullivan, Back Bay, Andrew, Kenmore.
I mean, hey, there has to be at least one upside to all this, right?
Are the trains running with specific destination signs? Could be some good opportunities to get some rare pictures! Sullivan, Back Bay, Andrew, Kenmore.
I mean, hey, there has to be at least one upside to all this, right?
winstonoboogie
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2012
- Messages
- 541
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
Wire has its downsides, heavy wind, or even the simple snagged pantograph (an issue from time to time on the Blue). I would say this winter serves as example of why it is wise to maintain the wire on the Blue, as every time there is a snagged pantograph, people are sometimes quick to suggest that it would make sense to convert Blue to third rail its entire distance.
It would be very expensive to convert Red/Orange surface to overhead wire, installing pantographs on the new cars would be a relatively small expense compared to the cost of installing the wire. I don't think the problems on the surface Orange Line or the Ashmont branch happen often enough to be worth the expense. The South Shore line though has always been more vulnerable to problems in ice and snow conditions. This winter is by far the most extreme example, but there have been other storms where service has been curtailed for a few hours, and in the blizzard of 1978, there was a train that was stalled for several hours at Freeport St., which (like in Quincy last Monday) required people to be evacuated from a train with the help of the fire department. Before considering a switch, there needs to be a review of the condition of the third rail heaters. They have always been somewhat problematic. Keeping the diesel locomotive and the diesel snow blower operable or replacing them if they are too problematic would seem like another item to follow through on. The jet snow blowers are really not intended for keeping a main line clear, and they don't work well in third rail territory. Third rail power (and thus third rail heaters as well) has to be killed while the jets are on the line, and the melted snow will quickly refreeze on the third rail which doesn't solve the problem.
Wire has its downsides, heavy wind, or even the simple snagged pantograph (an issue from time to time on the Blue). I would say this winter serves as example of why it is wise to maintain the wire on the Blue, as every time there is a snagged pantograph, people are sometimes quick to suggest that it would make sense to convert Blue to third rail its entire distance.
It would be very expensive to convert Red/Orange surface to overhead wire, installing pantographs on the new cars would be a relatively small expense compared to the cost of installing the wire. I don't think the problems on the surface Orange Line or the Ashmont branch happen often enough to be worth the expense. The South Shore line though has always been more vulnerable to problems in ice and snow conditions. This winter is by far the most extreme example, but there have been other storms where service has been curtailed for a few hours, and in the blizzard of 1978, there was a train that was stalled for several hours at Freeport St., which (like in Quincy last Monday) required people to be evacuated from a train with the help of the fire department. Before considering a switch, there needs to be a review of the condition of the third rail heaters. They have always been somewhat problematic. Keeping the diesel locomotive and the diesel snow blower operable or replacing them if they are too problematic would seem like another item to follow through on. The jet snow blowers are really not intended for keeping a main line clear, and they don't work well in third rail territory. Third rail power (and thus third rail heaters as well) has to be killed while the jets are on the line, and the melted snow will quickly refreeze on the third rail which doesn't solve the problem.
winstonoboogie
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2012
- Messages
- 541
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
The Orange Line cars don't have electronic destination signs, the only rollsign choices are "Oak Grove", "Wellington", "Forest Hills", "No Stops" and "Not in Service".
The older Rd Line cars don't have an "Andrew" destination, but the 01800 series cars can be signed up for any stop on the line, same is true for Green Line cars. I believe they are operating Riverside-North Station and Prudential-Lechmere, not sure if they are actually signing up the E line cars as "Prudential". They are using a crossover located between Prudential and Symphony.
The Orange Line cars don't have electronic destination signs, the only rollsign choices are "Oak Grove", "Wellington", "Forest Hills", "No Stops" and "Not in Service".
The older Rd Line cars don't have an "Andrew" destination, but the 01800 series cars can be signed up for any stop on the line, same is true for Green Line cars. I believe they are operating Riverside-North Station and Prudential-Lechmere, not sure if they are actually signing up the E line cars as "Prudential". They are using a crossover located between Prudential and Symphony.
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
I've been riding the D branch since 2001, from Newton Highlands in to downtown. They dramatically decreased the wire damage from storm fall when they did that massive tree cutting operation a while back. Maybe abou 2008 or 2009? They logged so many trees that route 9 looked like Oregon from all the logging trucks (ok ok, we ARE talking way smaller trees than in Oregon).
There used to be trees pulling down the pantograph wire in damn near every dinky thunderstorm. Never mind hurricanes. In recent years we've had far far less of that, even though many of the private abutting lots have risky trees still there.
So I can't judge whether it makes sense to switch RL or OL yo pantograph. But I've seen the benefits of aggressive management of tree growth in the D line ROW.
I've been riding the D branch since 2001, from Newton Highlands in to downtown. They dramatically decreased the wire damage from storm fall when they did that massive tree cutting operation a while back. Maybe abou 2008 or 2009? They logged so many trees that route 9 looked like Oregon from all the logging trucks (ok ok, we ARE talking way smaller trees than in Oregon).
There used to be trees pulling down the pantograph wire in damn near every dinky thunderstorm. Never mind hurricanes. In recent years we've had far far less of that, even though many of the private abutting lots have risky trees still there.
So I can't judge whether it makes sense to switch RL or OL yo pantograph. But I've seen the benefits of aggressive management of tree growth in the D line ROW.
GeneseeJunction
New member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2014
- Messages
- 32
- Reaction score
- 18
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
Watching the evening news and rather aghast to see aerial views of dozens and dozens of men manually digging out what appear to be unplowed tracks. I understand manually digging out the third rail, but couldn't a locomotive and a plow do the 9 mile line alone in a few hours and then the gangs come in and do the third rail?
Tracks in background unplowed:
Shoveling unplowed tracks:
This doesn't strike me as very efficient. I'd like to be able to get to work this week, but so far it looks like 3 days of suspended above ground orange line.
Watching the evening news and rather aghast to see aerial views of dozens and dozens of men manually digging out what appear to be unplowed tracks. I understand manually digging out the third rail, but couldn't a locomotive and a plow do the 9 mile line alone in a few hours and then the gangs come in and do the third rail?
Tracks in background unplowed:
Shoveling unplowed tracks:
This doesn't strike me as very efficient. I'd like to be able to get to work this week, but so far it looks like 3 days of suspended above ground orange line.
Jahvon09
Senior Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2011
- Messages
- 3,257
- Reaction score
- 767
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
They got a heat-blowing machine to do that with. I've seen it in use on the news.
Why aren't they using it? Wouldn't that help save some time & hard labor?!! But not to THEM. That would make some sense.
They got a heat-blowing machine to do that with. I've seen it in use on the news.
Why aren't they using it? Wouldn't that help save some time & hard labor?!! But not to THEM. That would make some sense.
GeneseeJunction
New member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2014
- Messages
- 32
- Reaction score
- 18
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
Was just on Fox 25, MBTA saids $30/hr was paid to non-union shovelers, but won't say when asked how much the union shovelers got. Also won't advertise the job publicly and won't say how many shovelers were hired, simply saying "more than 100."
Wow, Boston never fails to find a make work opportunity. And, don't forget, we can draw this out for 30 days!
Was just on Fox 25, MBTA saids $30/hr was paid to non-union shovelers, but won't say when asked how much the union shovelers got. Also won't advertise the job publicly and won't say how many shovelers were hired, simply saying "more than 100."
Wow, Boston never fails to find a make work opportunity. And, don't forget, we can draw this out for 30 days!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2012
- Messages
- 5,078
- Reaction score
- 1,653
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
This is why it will take a month to get the T back to normal capacity...
This is why it will take a month to get the T back to normal capacity...
Equilibria
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2007
- Messages
- 6,825
- Reaction score
- 7,644
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
I'm sure Winston knows more about this, but you can't run a train of any kind on the Red or Orange lines when the third rail is covered with snow. When the T abandoned the above ground portion of those lines during last Monday's storm, they allowed drifts several feet in depth to collect on those rails.
Even if the T had a heat blaster ready to go, they simply can't propel it. Incidentally, I think the reason the D can run today is because catenary wires don't have this problem. Not sure why surface Blue is still a no go.
They got a heat-blowing machine to do that with. I've seen it in use on the news.
Why aren't they using it? Wouldn't that help save some time & hard labor?!! But not to THEM. That would make some sense.
I'm sure Winston knows more about this, but you can't run a train of any kind on the Red or Orange lines when the third rail is covered with snow. When the T abandoned the above ground portion of those lines during last Monday's storm, they allowed drifts several feet in depth to collect on those rails.
Even if the T had a heat blaster ready to go, they simply can't propel it. Incidentally, I think the reason the D can run today is because catenary wires don't have this problem. Not sure why surface Blue is still a no go.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
^ Blue Line is fine. It ran the full route yesterday and will today.
^ Blue Line is fine. It ran the full route yesterday and will today.
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
That is why you usually use a diesel locomotive to drive the blower. No need for the 3rd rail.
That is why you usually use a diesel locomotive to drive the blower. No need for the 3rd rail.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
Please read post #308.
Please read post #308.
Equilibria
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2007
- Messages
- 6,825
- Reaction score
- 7,644
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
I had read that it was truncated at Airport. Good to know.
I had read that it was truncated at Airport. Good to know.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!
The MBTA pre-announced the Monday service on Sunday night saying that Riverside would not run and that the BL would truncate at Airport, likely in anticipation of the ridiculous winds bringing down the catenary wires. It turned out that both lines were able to operate yesterday.
My BL commute this morning wasn't actually that bad. They seemed to be able to keep up with their 7-8 min headway goal.
The MBTA pre-announced the Monday service on Sunday night saying that Riverside would not run and that the BL would truncate at Airport, likely in anticipation of the ridiculous winds bringing down the catenary wires. It turned out that both lines were able to operate yesterday.
My BL commute this morning wasn't actually that bad. They seemed to be able to keep up with their 7-8 min headway goal.