MBTA Winter 2015: Failure and Recovery

Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

The only new rapid transit station built in the last 20 years was an infill in Assembly. So the idea of stop expansion and start fixing is entirely a non-starter in regard to the central subway.

The T certainly needs reform and to be more transparent, but the Orange Line has been a rusted shell for 10+ years. The Red Line cars are 45+ years old. Time didn't just speed up. We just placed an order 6 months ago for new trains. The fact that the MBTA and state failed to order new cars 10 years ago is on the MBTA not being more transparent about the issues and risks, but i would actually place more blame on the legislature and general public not caring even if they did.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

choo said:
The only new rapid transit station built in the last 20 years was an infill in Assembly. So the idea of stop expansion and start fixing is entirely a non-starter in regard to the central subway.

...
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Stopping expansion to start fixing makes sense when referring to South Coast Rail, as all of that money that could be better spent in the core. Expansion isn't what got us here (although spending money on expansion can make it worse), but there has definitely been a waste of some of the T's limited resources on CR expansion.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

Perhaps this is veering into crazy transit pitch territory, but is there any way the MBTA could divert funds from South Coast Rail toward modernizing the light/heavy rail system?
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

I understand what this women is saying---Don't blame me for this old outdated system.

So who are the people accountable for the lack of future investment and financial management of the MBTA? The MBTA won't allow the public pensions to be investigated. So who are the people to blame and how do we fix this problem.

Yes....... we can give the MBTA more money but that's like throwing the money into a blackhole.

The only way the MBTA gets a massive upgrade and huge investments would be to scrap the entire AGENCY and start from scratch.

This would be like investing in BIG DIG 2: without a plan or any fiscal accountability
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

TheRifleman said:
So who are the people we blame and how do we fix this problem.
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boston09.jpg
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

bigeman312 said:
I don't know about your claim that "no major transit system in the world has had ever to deal with 73 inches of snow in 17 days." What about Moscow? How do they handle it when they receive this type of winter weather: which, by the way, they do. How do they handle it when there are multiple feet of snow on the ground at all times, for months on end, every year? How does their transit system handle temperatures of -30, or even just a -15 degree morning?
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You are comparing one agency functioning in its normal operating environment with another operating in extreme conditions. There is no reason for a transit system anywhere in the United States to be designed with a Russian winter in mind. I'm sorry, but that kind of comparison is both unreasonable and only useful for stirring ill considered passions.
I know we all like to pretend that Boston is a world-class city, and I love Boston more than any other place in the world, but I can't even imagine Boston handling this weather as well as Moscow, a city in what is essentially a 2nd world country. How does that fit with your claim that no city could deal with this?
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Again, we aren't supposed to handle Moscow's weather. It would be a ridiculous waste of money to design our system to their operating requirements. Handling 70 inches of snow in two weeks is not currently something that our system should be suited toward, nor should it surprise us that it has failed under a once in a hundred years weather event.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

^ Thank you. No metro area, no matter how "world class", wastes money being "prepared" for any eventuality so far away from historical norms. Atlanta isn't prepared for more than 1" of snow (and shouldn't be). DC isn't prepared for more than 12" of snow (and shouldn't be). Boston isn't prepared for more than 40" of snow (and shouldn't have been). Dubai ground to a halt in "agony" when it got 4" of rain in 24 hours (That's a year's worth of rain to them).

The only question is what "new normal" should Boston be prepared for. By next year, let's have it up to 50", and raise it an inch per year after that as we get clearer indications that the climate has changed and what the new normal is. At this point, the best guess is that being prepared for a full 70" of snow would be a waste of money.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

Think of the MBTA as a pressure cooker that is about to explode.

They let stuff go for so long years back, and this is even before Beverly Scott took over the helm.

But things had gotten so far out of hand, and it seems that the Blame Game went into effect. Little things kept on adding up, turning into big things. Seems that nothing was being done while stuff just kept growing and growing to the point where the problems had manifested into a monster!

Now it all appears to have been fully blown out of proportion. :eek:
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

HenryAlan said:
You are comparing one agency functioning in its normal operating environment with another operating in extreme conditions. There is no reason for a transit system anywhere in the United States to be designed with a Russian winter in mind. I'm sorry, but that kind of comparison is both unreasonable and only useful for stirring ill considered passions.

Again, we aren't supposed to handle Moscow's weather. It would be a ridiculous waste of money to design our system to their operating requirements. Handling 70 inches of snow in two weeks is not currently something that our system should be suited toward, nor should it surprise us that it has failed under a once in a hundred years weather event.
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Thank you for agreeing with me and taking a quote from many pages back out of context. It was also followed up by this:

bigeman312 said:
I agree that it would be foolish for the MBTA to be prepared for 70 inches of snow in 17 days, or whatever it is. I agree with everyone's point about needing to prepare Boston's transit for a climate one should expect from Boston.

So, the MBTA should be prepared for Boston snow storms. This means lesser amounts than we've seen, but I am not sold, in 2015, that the MBTA is capable of handling those events. Can the T recover, in a day, from a 2-year or 5-year storm?

Let's say:

  • 1.5 feet in a day.
  • 2 feet in 3 days.
  • 30 inches in 10 days.
  • 3 feet in 2 weeks.
  • 40 inches in 3 weeks.
  • 50 inches in a month.
  • 80 inches in a season.

Taken individually, each of those totals happen somewhat rarely. Altogether though, we don't usually go too many years without one of those values being hit. Those are the events Boston should be prepared for. I have no reason to believe the T can handle those events with a 24-hour post-storm recovery in 2015. That is the standard I believe we should strive for. The T's recovery from events like this has become longer and less efficient over the years.

Moscow Metro did not shut down from that storm. Moscow Metro can handle events like that. I am not saying we should be prepared for Moscow's winters. But your point about nobody's transit system being able to handle this weather is inaccurate, as Moscow's can.
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So yes, at no point did ANYBODY say that Boston's transit system should be able to handle Moscow's weather. I love how Equilibria says "No city's transit system could handle this." I say, "Moscow's can, but we should definitely not prepare for Moscow's winters as that would be foolish." Everyone else says "We shouldn't prepare for Moscow's winters." Thank you for re-iterating that point and arguing against absolutely nobody, HenryAlan.

The T can't handle extremely harsh winters like these. Fact.
Some cities can. Fact.
The T should not waste resources preparing for events that are unlikely to transpire. Fact.
The T should spend money to better handle events that are likely to happen, that they currently can't handle. Fact

You say:

"You are comparing one agency functioning in its normal operating environment with another operating in extreme conditions."

No, in fact I was disputing Equilibria's unfounded claim that no city with a major transit system could handle this weather.

You say, "There is no reason for a transit system anywhere in the United States to be designed with a Russian winter in mind."

I agree and have made that point many times since the quote you are using.

"I'm sorry, but that kind of comparison is both unreasonable and only useful for stirring ill considered passions."

No actually the cities were never being compared. Moscow was used as a tiny example to dispute Equilibria's (out-of-character) unfounded, hyperbole. I could have used any of a number of cities. But at no point did I, or anybody else, say that we should be as prepared as Moscow did. You are creating an argument out of nothing.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

Shepard said:
What's been especially galling to me has been the repeated calls to "fix the system before expanding it" - that's been echoed from Globe op-eds to Uhub comments.

The T can and should be both bigger AND better. Better obviously enables bigger, but bigger also leads to better: more people on transit, more reasons to fix and maintain the system.
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I've been confused by those calls too. Guy on WBUR said that the MBTA was mandated to build 14 unfunded lines as part of the Big Dig, and that all this expansion needs to stop. I was floored. What expansion? I assume that this "14 new lines" includes MBCR plus all the mandates that were never completed (which the gentleman didn't mention).Obviously the functionally infant GLX (plus Assembly Sq infill) is the only expansion the RT system has undertaken in years. The media is doing a really terrible job at handling this discussion. They haven't got a clue.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

Does anybody know the financials to the MBTA?
What is the Yearly Budget?
How much of the Budget is paying the Pensions?

Revenues vs Expenses each year?
How much Debt does this agency carry?
Need to put the numbers in perspective: Before issuing a plan

Bottom Line: MBTA-Along with the state needs to issue massive Bonds to build a better Transit Grid for Massachusetts.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

bigeman312 said:
No actually the cities were never being compared. Moscow was used as a tiny example to dispute Equilibria's (out-of-character) unfounded, hyperbole. I could have used any of a number of cities. But at no point did I, or anybody else, say that we should be as prepared as Moscow did. You are creating an argument out of nothing.
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Well then, I submit that there was no purpose in you raising the issue of Moscow if you don't consider it instructive to figuring out what the MBTA should do in our current circumstance.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

HenryAlan said:
Well then, I submit that there was no purpose in you raising the issue of Moscow if you don't consider it instructive to figuring out what the MBTA should do in our current circumstance.
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It is still informative to look to other cities and emulate some of their best practices, even if that does not mean copying their preparedness exactly.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

TheRifleman said:
Does anybody know the financials to the MBTA?
What is the Yearly Budget?
How much of the Budget is paying the Pensions?

Revenues vs Expenses each year?
How much Debt does this agency carry?
Need to put the numbers in perspective: Before issuing a plan

Bottom Line: MBTA-Along with the state needs to issue massive Bonds to build a better Transit Grid for Massachusetts.
Click to expand...

I posted this twice already: http://www.mbtareview.com/MBTA_Review_2009.pdf
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

BussesAin'tTrains said:
I've been confused by those calls too. Guy on WBUR said that the MBTA was mandated to build 14 unfunded lines as part of the Big Dig, and that all this expansion needs to stop. I was floored. What expansion? I assume that this "14 new lines" includes MBCR plus all the mandates that were never completed (which the gentleman didn't mention).Obviously the functionally infant GLX (plus Assembly Sq infill) is the only expansion the RT system has undertaken in years. The media is doing a really terrible job at handling this discussion. They haven't got a clue.
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- 3 Old Colony
- 1 GLX
- 1 Blue line rebuliding
- 1 Newburyport Extension
- 1 Sliver Line ("South Boston Piers")
- 1 Framingham - Worcester extension
...that's 8

Stuff not built
- 1 Red-Blue
- 1 Arborway Restoration
...that's 10

And maybe he's counting the the bus stations and station overhauls?

I'm looking for a better copy, but here is the December 1990 (waning hours of the 2nd Dukakis aministration) Memorandum of understanding : traffic and air quality mitigation for the Central Artery/Third Harbor Tunnel Project Specifically, the MBTA mandates are in Appendix A, and there are 14 if you exclude the parking spaces (which'd get you to 16)

Appendix A

Project Year of Completion

Commuter Rail
- Old Colony Line Extension 1995
- Ipswich Line Extension to Newburyport 1993
- Framingham Line Extension to Worcester 1995
- Lynn Central Square Station and Parking Garage 1991
- North Station High Platforms New Tracks 1991
- South Station Track 12 1993

Rapid Transit
- South Station Access to Red Line 1991
- Blue Line Connection from Bowdoin Station to Red Line at Charles Station 2010
- Blue Line Platform Lengthening and Modernization 1997
- Green Line Extension to Ball Square/Tufts University 2010
- Green Line Arborway Restoration 1996

Bus
- South Station Bus Terminal 1993
- Lynn Transit Station Bus Terminal 1991
- South Boston Piers Electric Bus Service 2000

Park & Ride
- Addition of 10,000 spaces systemwide, outside of Boston 1995
- Addition of a further 10,000 spaces systemwide, outside of Boston 1998
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Other requirements were things like leaving the NSRL void in the CA/T, rebuilding Airport station, and doing what they could for NEC electrification and a parking freeze (by others)
 
Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

WHDH just reported that Beverly Scott has resigned from the MBTA... wow
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

Multiple media sources (WHDH, WCVB) reporting that Beverly Scott just resigned. I'm trying to dig up the effective date on Twitter, looks effective April 11. I'm somewhat shocked she would announce this in the middle of a crisis, especially since she isn't leaving immediately.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

Standing at Wellington and just saw an SUV with MTA markings and NY plates driving through the yard. I assume that it is related to the equipment they sent up but really weird to see.
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

What's the over/under on Baker finally talking to her before she's gone?
 
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