Millennium (Hayward) Place | 580 Washington Street | Downtown

Re: Hayward Place

I agree with what has been said above about not everything needing to be a landmark. I think infill and street level interaction is the best for DTX. That being said, I think Filenes, especially after all the waiting, deserves to be a nice landmark focal point for the neighborhood.
 
Re: Hayward Place

^Vanshnookraggen

When I suggested "Boston is not New York" it was to point out that we don't have that many opportunities to create gems. I've argued before that the Seaport represents an opportunity to do advance planning for a gem of a district -- not just large stumpy blocks.

I can't understand how people can continue to argue against the highest standards.

Bogus Arguments

1. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
2. Can't get financing (I've explained why this is bogus).
3. You have to build some crap to appreciate the gems.
4. Boston has plenty of gems. (SHOW ME THE RECENT ONES)

What the hell do you all have to lose by raising the bar on EVERY project?
 
Re: Hayward Place

@ Sicilian:

I don't think you've demonstrated that 1, 3, and 4 are bogus. As for 2, you've demonstrated that it is sometimes bogus, but you haven't demonstrated what incentive any developer has for not maximizing profit.

I have been making this argument for years. Fabric should be fabric and does not have to be a masterpiece. HP is subjectively ugly to some, but in the end it is a good bit of urban infill. For that matter, so is Archstone, and KP will be too. This part of town does not need a monument. (maybe a small green space or two would be good though)

cca

Yep, that's exactly it. Buildings along this section of Washington are not going to be noticed, even if they are beautiful. It's just not the right location, because it is too hidden from the rest of the city (I will argue strongly against a bland building along the Greenway or in Copley Sq., for example, but here it matters far less).

Continuing with the fabric metaphor, the most important issue is that there not be any tears (eg vacant lots, parking lots, Filene's holes). Above that, we focus on embroidery and buttons. Boston actually has a very solid base of fancy embroidery, punctuated by some amazing buttons (Custom House, Hancock, etc.). Our biggest problem is torn fabric.
 
Re: Hayward Place

A shitty street level facade (see rendering or most anything built within the past 40 or so years) can disrupt the fabric almost as much as an empty lot.

Just because something is better than nothing it doesn't mean that something is any good.
 
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^Henry

"Buildings along this section of Washington are not going to be noticed."

Not only is that untrue given this particular location, I'd go further to suggest that attention to hidden sites is critical if Boston is to create great districts, not just great boulevards.

With respect, Henry, when you say you would "argue strongly against a bland building along the Greenway" did you weigh in on threads for Independence Wharf, Intercontinental or Atlantic Wharf to regarding mediocrity in architecture, materials, sub-standard interior civic spaces at those sites, etc.? Or are you suggesting those buildings are gems?

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@Henry

Fine with me if a developer's motivation is to maximize profit. But when the BRA upzones a property it should have an obligation to raise the standards during the approval process. I don't expect the property owner or developer to voluntarily create a gem of a building. As it has been pointed out, Boston traditionally had property owners who took pride and built gems but we don't see that much anymore.

As for my other points regarding "perfect is the enemy of the good": That seems like a convenient maxim used to defend mediocrity. Do you have stats to back up that theory? I'd suggest that idealism raises the bar and is not the "enemy."

And "we need some crap to appreciate gems" is also convenient but not backed up from my experience walking through great cities. Take a walk up Summer Street in Fort Point and show me the crap that you need to appreciate the gems. Same goes for most of Boston's best streets.
 
Re: Hayward Place

^Henry

"Buildings along this section of Washington are not going to be noticed."

Not only is that untrue given this particular location, I'd go further to suggest that attention to hidden sites is critical if Boston is to create great districts, not just great boulevards.
We aren't going to agree on this, so I'm not sure there is much point in continuing this line. I will simply re-iterate something that I consider to be a fact: for a variety of reasons, many buildings will not be noticeable enough to stand out among the rest. I'm okay with this fact.
With respect, Henry, when you say you would "argue strongly against a bland building along the Greenway" did you weigh in on threads for Independence Wharf, Intercontinental or Atlantic Wharf to regarding mediocrity in architecture, materials, sub-standard interior civic spaces at those sites, etc.? Or are you suggesting those buildings are gems?
Those projects were all substantially under way by the time I joined this site. But to be honest, much of this is subjective, wouldn't you agree? I like both Atlantic Wharf and the Intercontinental. I like them both more than I like International Place, but there are many on this forum who heap praise on International Place. My point regarding the Greenway wasn't that we'll necessarily get a series of buildings that are universally praised, but more that it is where we should put the majority of our emphasis. It is a much more publicly noticeable location than the corner of Washington and Hayward. It is an area where I would agree that we should push for what we consider to be the best, all the while acknowledging that my views or yours on what constitute best may not agree.
**** Appended ****

@Henry

Fine with me if a developer's motivation is to maximize profit. But when the BRA upzones a property it should have an obligation to raise the standards during the approval process. I don't expect the property owner or developer to voluntarily create a gem of a building. As it has been pointed out, Boston traditionally had property owners who took pride and built gems but we don't see that much anymore.
Several of us have already pointed out why this is a false comparison. You are taking on the one hand property built by or for the occupant and holding it up as the standard for property built by and for a profit.
As for my other points regarding "perfect is the enemy of the good": That seems like a convenient maxim used to defend mediocrity. Do you have stats to back up that theory? I'd suggest that idealism raises the bar and is not the "enemy."
You only have to look at the many decent projects that have failed in this city for not meeting some set of minuscule issues to see why this is so. If mediocrity is what can be achieved, it is preferable to achieving nothing. There is an economic theory that covers much of this concept called the theory of second best. You should read up on it, and when you do, please note that it is manifestly not a defense of mediocrity, but a defense of activity over waiting.

And "we need some crap to appreciate gems" is also convenient but not backed up from my experience walking through great cities. Take a walk up Summer Street in Fort Point and show me the crap that you need to appreciate the gems. Same goes for most of Boston's best streets.
It's more that we need some contrast. A gem is only a gem if it stands out. Otherwise, it is mediocre.
 
Re: Hayward Place

You argue your points well, and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the BRA's responsibility if they shower the developer and/or property owner with value through upzoning, I think you let our planning agency off the hook. To a degree, I bet you and I might agree that the BRA should either be raising the bar or it has no clear reason to exist. The profit margin after upzoning is available to do better, but instead, the profit on projects such as this one is wrung out like a soggy washcloth.

PS. Atlantic Wharf and Intercontinental may be subjective on this forum. But I seriously doubt you'll see any respected architectural curators (if such a thing exists) bestow those projects with lavish praise. And for those sites, with the upzoning -- particularly at Atlantic Wharf, the projects could have been at a much higher level. I've raised the issue of the interior civic spaces -- seriously, seriously lacking in energy.
 
Re: Hayward Place

How will this building relate to the street level on Washington Street? If it does that well, all else is secondary.
 
Re: Hayward Place

Empty lot < Bad Building < OK Building < Great Building

Hayward Place is a Bad Building. I think an OK Building would be better for the sight.

Bad Buildings belong out on 128 (if at all).

Edit: Ron, looking at the rendering, I would say "poorly".
 
Re: Hayward Place

Empty lot < Bad Building < OK Building < Great Building

Hayward Place is a Bad Building. I think an OK Building would be better for the sight.

Bad Buildings belong out on 128 (if at all).

Edit: Ron, looking at the rendering, I would say "poorly".

How did the the Back Bay get to be great -- an unarguable characterization


First there was an initial set of simple rules:
uniform set-backs from the street
minimum 3 story height

Second most of the buildings were built for a specific customer who had high standards -- you can not really legislate this -- they competed for the best in materials, high styles and the top-line archtects

Third the place was allowed to evolve -- adaptive and dynamic

Fourth -- good bones -- the streets and Comm Ave

Fifth -- good public realm -- Comm Ave, Churches, BPL, old MFA

Then you step back and let it buid-out (30 years) and then evolve beyond

You will not be able to replicate all of these aspects anywhere in Boston except possibly for the SPID -- but you can encourage as much of it as possible -- the best that can be done with DTX is to insure that the ground and optionally the 2nd floor is pedestrian fiendly and provides some useful public functions -- the trade is that the developer gets more of what they propose in height and /or FAR

Then step-back and let the people who seem to have a sense of pride of place in DTX -- e.g. Millenium Partners to do what they do best -- develop
 
Re: Hayward Place

The ground floor of Millennium towers is mostly shit.
 
Re: Hayward Place

That's because some of it is still unrented to this day. Needs to be marketed more aggressively.
 
Re: Hayward Place

No, there are far, far too many blank walls and set back entrances throughout the entire development.

Just too much dead space for such a large area.
 
Re: Hayward Place

Empty lot < Bad Building < OK Building < Great Building

Hayward Place is a Bad Building. I think an OK Building would be better for the sight.

Bad Buildings belong out on 128 (if at all).

Edit: Ron, looking at the rendering, I would say "poorly".

Stat -- another apropos quote from a Robert Campbell Boston Globe Column (about the Yawkee Cancer Care Center at Dana Farber

" There are at least three ways any building can be good. First, it can be a wonderful place to inhabit, to live in or work in, or maybe see a performance in. Second, it can be a beautiful object as viewed from outside, a kind of sculpture, like the Taj Mahal or Hancock Tower. Or third, it can take on the tougher job of helping to shape and invigorate a larger public space......the third that matters to the general public. Good cities are made of good streets. Looked at this way, the role of urban buildings is to make the walls that shape the street spaces. Streets are the public rooms in which we spend much of our lives, moving through them as we drive, bus, bike, walk, shop, gather, or just people-watch.

Think of Commonwealth Avenue, where the house facades wear stiff and fancy architectural uniforms and are lined up on both sides like troops on parade. As architecture Commonwealth Avenue is pretty good, but as urban design it?s magnificent. The facades function as the paneled walls of a world class urban room.......Good cities, as noted above, are made of good streets. The buildings that shape our streets must respond to that imperative.... "

These are good observations by Campbell that should help define the definition of "good citizenship" for anomous (e.g. small in-fill), semi-visible (larer sites on main streets), and of course important buildings standing out because of where they are (e.g. on a major street corner, etc.).

With this kind of attention to providing the "walls to a street room" -- DTX can return to is former goodness -- even as we wait for the signature piece to fill the Filene's Hole
 
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Re: Hayward Place

The first step on the road to Utopia is the understanding that aesthetics contribute to an object's overall utility.

This is true of consumer electronics, publications, computer applications, and urban environments.
 
Re: Hayward Place

And then... those cheap laborers became unionized.....

The unions actually actively discriminated against the skilled foreign laborers. Following both world wars this partially led to a situation where unskilled labor was often paid as much as skilled labor. It didn't take very long for that lunacy to create all sorts of demographic problems in industry. Why become skilled if the pay is the same and how can a business survive paying a lot of money to someone with no skills?

The answer to the question was: many didn't become skilled at anything since the pay was the same. Then the companies realized, when competing in a global market, that they were overpaying unskilled and relatively worthless people, and started outsourcing or value engineering the production of products into utter crap.

We have better tools and technology than ever and our typical construction guys can't even frame a wall straight and plumb anymore at a reasonable cost.
 
Re: Hayward Place

I could see Foster doing a building that size in his style. Perhaps he can be hired and they can glam it up a bit!
 
Re: Hayward Place

^Henry

With respect, Henry, when you say you would "argue strongly against a bland building along the Greenway" did you weigh in on threads for Independence Wharf, Intercontinental or Atlantic Wharf to regarding mediocrity in architecture, materials, sub-standard interior civic spaces at those sites, etc.? Or are you suggesting those buildings are gems?


Can somebody explain why Intercontinental and Atlantic Wharf ground levels were not developed more friendly access towards the Greenway? I like Intercontinental development but the Ground Level could have been much active.
 
Re: Hayward Place

Can somebody explain why Intercontinental and Atlantic Wharf ground levels were not developed more friendly access towards the Greenway? I like Intercontinental development but the Ground Level could have been much active.

Rif -- I kind of like both -- espcially when I'm walking the Greenway from N to S in the vicinity of the Custom House -- the visually interact in intersting ways

as an aside -- I won't be doing it for a while because of the refuse that's deposited itself near South Station.

I think that Intercontinental Hotel and Condos was constrained by the need to enclose the O'Neil Tunnel vent stack, combined with the modern practice of hotel and condo complexes of having vallet parking and an entrance to the underground garage -- in front since there was no access except a fire lane on either side and of course sitting on the water nothing behind

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...639&spn=0.00658,0.014591&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=0

The result was that the only area that the Intercontinental developer really had much flexibility -- was the Intercontinental Gardens in back of the Hotel on the Fort Point Channel and Harborwalk -- I think it is almost as pleasant as Rowe's Wharf's piece of the Harbor Walk

Atlantic Wharf (nee Russia wharf) had to deal with the existing historic facade along Atlantic and around the corner on Congress St. -- its most flexible side was toward the Fort Point Channel
I'm not sure that they've finished with the lanscaping yet - I've only seen it from in front and on the Congress St. side -- but continuing construction limited access

http://bostonluxuryresidential.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/congressstrender__1294696028_4841.jpg

as an aside -- Unfortunately -- due to recent developments (undevelopment) in Dewey Sq. there will need to be additional money spent on restoring rather than enhancing the Greenway after the detritus drifts away
 

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