Plan Nubian Square Parcel P-3 (née Tremont Crossing) | Roxbury
- Thread starter AdamBC
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
Re: Tremont Crossing project
And it's the same freaking parcel, just a scale back. Threads on this forum are actually by parcel. We didn't create a new thread for The Merano when it came back from the grave as a new project. This thread should absolutely be merged with the real Tremont Crossing thread.
And it's a damn shame this parcel got scaled back so dramatically. It's right across from rapid transit. The site can absolutely sustain that kind of density.
And it's the same freaking parcel, just a scale back. Threads on this forum are actually by parcel. We didn't create a new thread for The Merano when it came back from the grave as a new project. This thread should absolutely be merged with the real Tremont Crossing thread.
And it's a damn shame this parcel got scaled back so dramatically. It's right across from rapid transit. The site can absolutely sustain that kind of density.
Re: Tremont Crossing project
It can and it cant. The O Line is packed to the point of not being able to get a seat even by Stony Brook in the morning... rush hour headways are now 5 minutes instead of 4 due to something at Forest Hills, not that at 4min things were much better. But sure, maybe the site could handle more density. Anyplace could. In other countries places with zero rapid transit have high density places. But I do get tired of hearing people just say that X site is perfect for infinitely huge developments just because there's a train station there. Ruggles is the hinterlands and the only way to get there from other points is the cumbersome into downtown and out again thing - many people dont feel like doing this. So what, that's their prerogative. Having a peripheral T station there doesnt make it incredibly convenient for all the people that are going to use that site. Really, the retail space is going to pull mostly from Roxbury and Mattapan, and via bus and car, not train. The theater will do the same, with a few students and some South Enders and people in JP.
It doesnt matter though - this is still a massive project for the area, massive. Commercializing this area AND adding a movie theater is HUGE. And these buildings are still enormous compared to anything around, except the dorm across the street. It could really be transformational.... It would be nice if the Hope grant housing project redesigns in the area dont continue to make the rest of the area so uniformly residential - they should bring in more ground level retail and diversify the area because right now it's boring and bland even where there arent any vacant lots.
It can and it cant. The O Line is packed to the point of not being able to get a seat even by Stony Brook in the morning... rush hour headways are now 5 minutes instead of 4 due to something at Forest Hills, not that at 4min things were much better. But sure, maybe the site could handle more density. Anyplace could. In other countries places with zero rapid transit have high density places. But I do get tired of hearing people just say that X site is perfect for infinitely huge developments just because there's a train station there. Ruggles is the hinterlands and the only way to get there from other points is the cumbersome into downtown and out again thing - many people dont feel like doing this. So what, that's their prerogative. Having a peripheral T station there doesnt make it incredibly convenient for all the people that are going to use that site. Really, the retail space is going to pull mostly from Roxbury and Mattapan, and via bus and car, not train. The theater will do the same, with a few students and some South Enders and people in JP.
It doesnt matter though - this is still a massive project for the area, massive. Commercializing this area AND adding a movie theater is HUGE. And these buildings are still enormous compared to anything around, except the dorm across the street. It could really be transformational.... It would be nice if the Hope grant housing project redesigns in the area dont continue to make the rest of the area so uniformly residential - they should bring in more ground level retail and diversify the area because right now it's boring and bland even where there arent any vacant lots.
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Tremont Crossing project
FK -- some good observations about the local aspect -- there is however a longer term "global aspect"
IF the NCAAA is successful then a potential axis may develop of what we technoGnurds used to call "Artsy - Fartsy"
Start at the NCAA -- go through / by NEU & Wentworth come to Avenue des Artes [aka Huntington] continue past MFA, Mass Art, Tufts Art [aka School of MFA] end up at Isabella's Place
Throw in the location of where Childe Hassam lived and painted, visit his Park [Childe Hassam Park and you have another Boston walk
FK -- some good observations about the local aspect -- there is however a longer term "global aspect"
IF the NCAAA is successful then a potential axis may develop of what we technoGnurds used to call "Artsy - Fartsy"
Start at the NCAA -- go through / by NEU & Wentworth come to Avenue des Artes [aka Huntington] continue past MFA, Mass Art, Tufts Art [aka School of MFA] end up at Isabella's Place
Throw in the location of where Childe Hassam lived and painted, visit his Park [Childe Hassam Park and you have another Boston walk
guitarguynboston
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2009
- Messages
- 237
- Reaction score
- 304
Re: Tremont Crossing project
I agree the OL is packed by this point but Ruggles is also a major bus hub and isn't the SL close on the otherside of this project? Also if the urban ring ever gets built in the future it will pass right by this. If we build dense now and public transit can't handle it maybe it will kick the state in the a$$ to actually build better transit sooner than later like the urban ring. Watch the Seaport, there's already hub bub about the silver handling the boom over there and the Seaport isn't even close to full build.
I agree the OL is packed by this point but Ruggles is also a major bus hub and isn't the SL close on the otherside of this project? Also if the urban ring ever gets built in the future it will pass right by this. If we build dense now and public transit can't handle it maybe it will kick the state in the a$$ to actually build better transit sooner than later like the urban ring. Watch the Seaport, there's already hub bub about the silver handling the boom over there and the Seaport isn't even close to full build.
odurandina
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2015
- Messages
- 5,328
- Reaction score
- 265
this one is as good or as bad as any to post this;
Globe story on neighborhood extortion groups;
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...e-influence/CAv3Hh1mlEZBavZLuGYX2I/story.html
Globe story on neighborhood extortion groups;
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...e-influence/CAv3Hh1mlEZBavZLuGYX2I/story.html
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 8,894
- Reaction score
- 271
F-Line to Dudley
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2010
- Messages
- 9,262
- Reaction score
- 9,285
Re: Tremont Crossing project
Forest Hills is the problem. It's choking on its own bus transfer loads because of outer neighborhood growth and the fact that Washington St. outbound has to carry so many duplicate routings into the terminal that the bunching is beyond insane and creates huge irregular stampedes of people into the OL station. Train's full before it even starts if you get a half-dozen bunched buses discharging transferees at the same time.
Honestly, a +1 OL extension to Roslindale is probably the only perma-fix for this. The rush-hour headway bump from that's coming from the increased car supply will only provide so many years of relief before FH re-overwhelms with congestion. The only thing that's going to fix it for good is outright pulling 5 of the 9 Washington St. routes that duplicate each other for a full mile south of FH to loop at a Rozzie terminal instead. That short-circuits all the bunching potential at the South St./Washington convergence where all these routes start getting completely entangled in each other's traffic. Given the rate of growth along the Washington corridor past Ruggles this may start sailing higher...faster...up the transit build priority chain than it looks today. At least it's not a back-breaker on cost to do as strictly a +1 alongside a still-active Needham Line if they can keep the station opulence in-check at Rozzie and eat, rather than expand, parking acreage for the busway and bus layover.
Forest Hills is the problem. It's choking on its own bus transfer loads because of outer neighborhood growth and the fact that Washington St. outbound has to carry so many duplicate routings into the terminal that the bunching is beyond insane and creates huge irregular stampedes of people into the OL station. Train's full before it even starts if you get a half-dozen bunched buses discharging transferees at the same time.
Honestly, a +1 OL extension to Roslindale is probably the only perma-fix for this. The rush-hour headway bump from that's coming from the increased car supply will only provide so many years of relief before FH re-overwhelms with congestion. The only thing that's going to fix it for good is outright pulling 5 of the 9 Washington St. routes that duplicate each other for a full mile south of FH to loop at a Rozzie terminal instead. That short-circuits all the bunching potential at the South St./Washington convergence where all these routes start getting completely entangled in each other's traffic. Given the rate of growth along the Washington corridor past Ruggles this may start sailing higher...faster...up the transit build priority chain than it looks today. At least it's not a back-breaker on cost to do as strictly a +1 alongside a still-active Needham Line if they can keep the station opulence in-check at Rozzie and eat, rather than expand, parking acreage for the busway and bus layover.
odurandina
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2015
- Messages
- 5,328
- Reaction score
- 265
The Central de Autobusses in Juarez, Chihuahua in the days leading up to Christmas is truly a sight to behold. 1 bus leaving the station about every 45 seconds going on a non-stop route to the interior... i suppose they've already studied if adding dedicated busses making only 1 or 2 stops up Tremont, Washington, Columbus, Albany, Mass Ave, Beacon, Comm Ave etc can offer some relief until help arrives.
and what about doing another subway line under Blue Hill Ave ?
i mean, if they can do the train to somewhere in California, we can....
and in what order do you rank the above crazy transit pitches?
and what about doing another subway line under Blue Hill Ave ?
i mean, if they can do the train to somewhere in California, we can....
and in what order do you rank the above crazy transit pitches?
F-Line to Dudley
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2010
- Messages
- 9,262
- Reaction score
- 9,285
WTF is this word salad?
No...you take care of the bread-and-butter first before proposing Crazy Transit Pitches in completely and utterly unrelated areas. We don't need a frickin' Blue Hill Ave. subway as a solve for Forest Hills bus terminal choking on its own growth. Blue Hill Ave. is miles away from Forest Hills and isn't taking huge irregular dumps on its Orange transfer. You fix Forest Hills by taking the routes that destroy each other's performance via duplicating the same last mile and make a new transfer point that cuts out that destabilizing last mile.
Obvious solutions for obvious problems, not strawmen arguments for somebody's pet empire-building project.
odurandina
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2015
- Messages
- 5,328
- Reaction score
- 265
i need at least 1 more beat down. i realize the separation, but what about a subway down Blue Hill Ave on it's own merits. It seems there's an asston of room for growth on the rt 138/28 corridor... or are we so close to the Red Line that having a parallel line would be self-defeating.
And back to Forrest Hills. What about doing a couple of miles of catenary to get something akin to a functional Silverliner to suppliment the O-Line?
And back to Forrest Hills. What about doing a couple of miles of catenary to get something akin to a functional Silverliner to suppliment the O-Line?
F-Line to Dudley
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2010
- Messages
- 9,262
- Reaction score
- 9,285
Why not just deep-bore it deeper than anything's been deep-bored before while we're at it so the hidden civilization of mole people living underneath Boston can have their (anti-)height fetish too? It'd be just as relevant a practical fix for taming development-driven transit overcrowding in Roxbury.
Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ.
odurandina
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2015
- Messages
- 5,328
- Reaction score
- 265
guitarguynboston
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2009
- Messages
- 237
- Reaction score
- 304
Re: Tremont Crossing project
First, F-line, I gotta say I look forward to your transit posts. You have some amazing knowledge about Boston transit and some great ideas on improvements and future growth. With that I completely agree about FH and the Rosindale area. It's totally lacking proper transit for the stats of that area.
On a random side question. On all four lines(Green, Blue, Orange, and Red) is there any way down the line in the future can we get an additional track for express trains? Obviously it would cost crazy amounts but money aside is it something that we could do? In my opinion the missing of that 3rd track on all the subway lines is the biggest mistake Boston transit has ever made.
Sorry for the unrelated tangent.
First, F-line, I gotta say I look forward to your transit posts. You have some amazing knowledge about Boston transit and some great ideas on improvements and future growth. With that I completely agree about FH and the Rosindale area. It's totally lacking proper transit for the stats of that area.
On a random side question. On all four lines(Green, Blue, Orange, and Red) is there any way down the line in the future can we get an additional track for express trains? Obviously it would cost crazy amounts but money aside is it something that we could do? In my opinion the missing of that 3rd track on all the subway lines is the biggest mistake Boston transit has ever made.
Sorry for the unrelated tangent.
F-Line to Dudley
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2010
- Messages
- 9,262
- Reaction score
- 9,285
Re: Tremont Crossing project
Yes on Orange-north where the 3rd track already exists and was designed to be extended to Oak Grove to swallow the CR track should the Reading extension happen. But it's not useful for anything today because extending Orange north is the only practical use for expressing. And that's a bottom-priority project right now. The only thing that changes that game is if the N-S Rail Link makes the inner Western Route the odd man out on capacity matches for the southside mainlines and makes swallowing it to Orange more prudent than upgrading for double-track, (mostly) grade separated electric commuter rail. But we're getting way ahead of ourselves there because detailed studies w/ line-by-line traffic modeling have to show the math on whether the Reading Line's going to be a problematic gimp worth switching modes. Out-of-sight/out-of-mind.
Elsewhere...no. Space simply doesn't exist to run NYC-style express vs. local layered patterns. And the lines aren't nearly long enough to make that particularly useful for speeding up end-to-end schedules to the outermost extension stops. They determined way back in 1945 with the unbuilt extensions map that local trips were A-OK for spanning 128-to-128. Congestion today is mainly a problem of compromised throughput through the downtown transfers from crush-load CBD growth, decaying SGR keeping the lines from performing to true capacity at peak load, not enough cars, and constipated transfer terminals like this Forest Hills bus bunching problem causing irregularly-timed platform overcrowding with choppiness that drags inbound. The solution is fixing the damn deferred maintenance, then more radial transit builds (Red-Blue! Red-Blue!) to take a load off the main transfer stations, and fixing the overloaded bus terminals with BLX-Lynn and things like this basic +1 to Rozzie relieving FH of 5 duplicate Washington St. routes that are hopelessly entangled in unsolvable bunching.
Yeah...eventually I think you need to get real light rail to Dudley Square replacing the Silver Line so a downtown one-seat keeps Dudley-Ruggles congestion from warping things (esp. before you even think about bringing the Urban Ring through there). But for the most part Roxbury's going to function a lot better all up and down the Orange corridor if Forest Hills bus bunching gets tamed before the outer neighborhoods burden these problem routes too much more. FH has long, long inbound coattails stretching all the way downtown. That's where fixing the Upper Washington corridor matters a lot more to Roxbury than the 28X corridor down Blue Hill Ave., which is way more a Mattapan transit enhancement than a Roxbury transit streamliner. Keep Roxbury's focus first and foremost on debugging the corridor with the longest coattails through Roxbury: Orange from FH point of origin.
Yes on Orange-north where the 3rd track already exists and was designed to be extended to Oak Grove to swallow the CR track should the Reading extension happen. But it's not useful for anything today because extending Orange north is the only practical use for expressing. And that's a bottom-priority project right now. The only thing that changes that game is if the N-S Rail Link makes the inner Western Route the odd man out on capacity matches for the southside mainlines and makes swallowing it to Orange more prudent than upgrading for double-track, (mostly) grade separated electric commuter rail. But we're getting way ahead of ourselves there because detailed studies w/ line-by-line traffic modeling have to show the math on whether the Reading Line's going to be a problematic gimp worth switching modes. Out-of-sight/out-of-mind.
Elsewhere...no. Space simply doesn't exist to run NYC-style express vs. local layered patterns. And the lines aren't nearly long enough to make that particularly useful for speeding up end-to-end schedules to the outermost extension stops. They determined way back in 1945 with the unbuilt extensions map that local trips were A-OK for spanning 128-to-128. Congestion today is mainly a problem of compromised throughput through the downtown transfers from crush-load CBD growth, decaying SGR keeping the lines from performing to true capacity at peak load, not enough cars, and constipated transfer terminals like this Forest Hills bus bunching problem causing irregularly-timed platform overcrowding with choppiness that drags inbound. The solution is fixing the damn deferred maintenance, then more radial transit builds (Red-Blue! Red-Blue!) to take a load off the main transfer stations, and fixing the overloaded bus terminals with BLX-Lynn and things like this basic +1 to Rozzie relieving FH of 5 duplicate Washington St. routes that are hopelessly entangled in unsolvable bunching.
Yeah...eventually I think you need to get real light rail to Dudley Square replacing the Silver Line so a downtown one-seat keeps Dudley-Ruggles congestion from warping things (esp. before you even think about bringing the Urban Ring through there). But for the most part Roxbury's going to function a lot better all up and down the Orange corridor if Forest Hills bus bunching gets tamed before the outer neighborhoods burden these problem routes too much more. FH has long, long inbound coattails stretching all the way downtown. That's where fixing the Upper Washington corridor matters a lot more to Roxbury than the 28X corridor down Blue Hill Ave., which is way more a Mattapan transit enhancement than a Roxbury transit streamliner. Keep Roxbury's focus first and foremost on debugging the corridor with the longest coattails through Roxbury: Orange from FH point of origin.
Schorschico
New member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2014
- Messages
- 47
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: Tremont Crossing project
F-Line, what is your estimation ($) for that +1 OL project? I would love to have a number a bit more solid than my own random guesses.
F-Line, what is your estimation ($) for that +1 OL project? I would love to have a number a bit more solid than my own random guesses.
guitarguynboston
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2009
- Messages
- 237
- Reaction score
- 304
Re: Tremont Crossing project
One last question for you F-LINE before I derail this thread to a transit chaos. Would the Urban Ring solve some of the crush issues at the core of the system that the Red/Blue is supposed to. I'd love to see the blue expanded to Lynn connect to red and head south along Storrow all the way through to eat the D line but cost vs solving more transit issues I think the Urban Ring would be better bang for your buck.
One last question for you F-LINE before I derail this thread to a transit chaos. Would the Urban Ring solve some of the crush issues at the core of the system that the Red/Blue is supposed to. I'd love to see the blue expanded to Lynn connect to red and head south along Storrow all the way through to eat the D line but cost vs solving more transit issues I think the Urban Ring would be better bang for your buck.
F-Line to Dudley
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2010
- Messages
- 9,262
- Reaction score
- 9,285
Re: Tremont Crossing project
Not without better load-balancing all around the neighborhood. UR is going to flush WAY more riders into Ruggles/Dudley than it disperses, so there are all kinds of correcting moves that need to be made across the Roxbury transit chessboard to make it work. UR isn't an end-to-end trip, it's a transfer-to-transfer trip...which means your transfer points better be up-to-task for sending people on their way or said terminal is going to show up in bright lights as a toilet clog. Radial lines are very different from through-the-gut lines. Something like this is way more dependent on the local Yellow Line routes functioning well and free from excess constipation than, say, a linear subway extension that leads all other modes by the nose. With Ruggles/Dudley being the largest bus terminal of them all, that's not the place you want transfer flow to get upended by loose bolts of inefficiency somebody neglected to tighten.
Gonna need lots better local bus frequencies to move the high-frequency incoming transferees out. And the distended around-the-block loopage from Dudley-Ruggles-Roxbury X'ing needs to be streamlined as efficiently as possible with every road-tweak trick in the book so it's not dragging under load. This is also where you have to reckon with the Silver Line not being one-seat complete into the downtown transfers via a completed Phase III tunnel or straight branchline feed into the Green Line (you know which mode is the easier solve). So lots of fortifications needed if a growing neighborhood is to be well-equipped to handle the Urban Ring. Most of it non-sexy local Yellow route service/reliability improvements, but projected over a whole freaking lot of bus routes at that very big terminal.
Not without better load-balancing all around the neighborhood. UR is going to flush WAY more riders into Ruggles/Dudley than it disperses, so there are all kinds of correcting moves that need to be made across the Roxbury transit chessboard to make it work. UR isn't an end-to-end trip, it's a transfer-to-transfer trip...which means your transfer points better be up-to-task for sending people on their way or said terminal is going to show up in bright lights as a toilet clog. Radial lines are very different from through-the-gut lines. Something like this is way more dependent on the local Yellow Line routes functioning well and free from excess constipation than, say, a linear subway extension that leads all other modes by the nose. With Ruggles/Dudley being the largest bus terminal of them all, that's not the place you want transfer flow to get upended by loose bolts of inefficiency somebody neglected to tighten.
Gonna need lots better local bus frequencies to move the high-frequency incoming transferees out. And the distended around-the-block loopage from Dudley-Ruggles-Roxbury X'ing needs to be streamlined as efficiently as possible with every road-tweak trick in the book so it's not dragging under load. This is also where you have to reckon with the Silver Line not being one-seat complete into the downtown transfers via a completed Phase III tunnel or straight branchline feed into the Green Line (you know which mode is the easier solve). So lots of fortifications needed if a growing neighborhood is to be well-equipped to handle the Urban Ring. Most of it non-sexy local Yellow route service/reliability improvements, but projected over a whole freaking lot of bus routes at that very big terminal.
odurandina
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2015
- Messages
- 5,328
- Reaction score
- 265
Parcel P-3 rezoning petition for 275' passes, paving the way for final project approval....