Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

Re: North-South Rail Link

Would adding a 3rd track along most of the Providence line make Rapid EMU's Frequencies possible?

From what I've heard planned increases in CR and Amtrak makes that additional track already spoken for. The frequencies on the NEC will be very high without EMUs. It's something that should be studied, but getting trains to Norwood or Walpole might be better off using Fairmount instead.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

So lets say the link gets built in a decade or two, and that in the meantime the T has built out its planned Indigo DMUs. What gets routed through the Link? If its only built with 2 tracks, would it make sense to keep through routed CR to a minimium, and instead turn the Link into a tunnel linking the MU services? It could be pitched as creating an all new rapid transit network, while still allowing slots for thru routed Amtraks and some off peak/late night CR.

IMO this makes way more sense than using 2 tracks for the red line, as you can intermingle Amtrak/CR traffic if/when the expanded South Station hits capacity.

AFAIK, DMUs will not be allowed through the link. Only electrics, EMUs or dual-mode locomotives will be able to enter the Link.

That's really the big expense. Buying new fleets of vehicles and electrifying lines that will be using the link. NEC is already electrified, but there's no capacity for any 'MU frequency routes along the NEC.

The issue from through-running as I see it, is that every northern line (Fitchburg, Lowell, Haverhill, and Newburyport/Rockport) has both the capacity and the demand for some sort of inner 'MU-type service. Of the southern routes, only Framingham/Worcester and Fairmount have the capacity and the demand to implement 15-18 minute headways.

Worcester can handle it with signal and passing track upgrades. Fairmount is already ready for RT-like service.

Old Colony can't handle high headways due to the pinch in Dorchester. Removing that pinch is a megaproject all its own. Old Colony probably won't get a portal into the Link until that's done. It's fiscally a dead end.

The NEC will be handling both higher frequencies of Amtrak service as well as higher MBCR traffic - especially after the Link is built. Projected congestion on the NEC will already eventually box out the Needham Line by choking it to death, so there won't be any capacity on the NEC for an 'MU line to Needham. Needham's getting choked to death by the NEC's growth and will eventually need to be replaced with a Green/Orange paired extension. That means there won't be any 'MUs running 18 minute headways on the NEC. The capacity isn't there now and won't be there in the future.

If routed along the Fairmount, the Franklin Line could probably handle high headway service to Norwood or Walpole.

The first southern Link portal to be built will be for the NEC, which will likely also include access for the Worcester Line (which would need at least partial electrification). The northern portal will likely be able to include both the Lowell Line and the Eastern and Western Routes (electrified). Fitchburg will probably never get one. Problem is, the Worcester Line will only be able to handle one high headway 'MU line (pick a through-run option to Lowell, Reading or Salem/Peabody).

With the initial build there's no other option for routing 18 min headway 'MUs through the link. That leaves any 'MUs running on the remaining four northern lines to terminate on the surface at North Station.

The next priority should probably be electrification and portal construction for Fairmount and maybe some of Franklin. There won't be as much demand for an RER to the Fairmount since there's no employment centers along it. Commuters will take a Link-running train to South Station, but not many will stay on beyond that because the Fairmount runs through residential neighborhoods. That lack of demand, and the high costs of building the portal and electrifying the line will make this one a political battle, but it's still probably the easiest way to get another high-headway line through the link.

Old Colony will have to wait until the Dorchester mess is funded and fixed, and Needham is getting squeezed on its existing schedule, let alone at higher headways.

Realistically, as far as transformational 'MU-type service goes, the most to expect is two high-headway,through-running routes (something like Lowell - Riverside and Peabody - Walpole). That's it.

EDIT:

Here's something like what I'd envision for post-Link 'MU service, once two southern portals are built:

Indigo Lines Map

There would be two through routing lines From the South side. One from Riverside or Framingham, and one from Dedham or Norwood. On the north side, only two lines would receive those trains (if high headways are to be maintained). Pick two from Peabody, Reading, or Lowell. The Fitchburg line's 'MUs will always terminate on the surface at North Station.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Here's something like what I'd envision for post-Link 'MU service, once two southern portals are built:

Indigo Lines Map
I want this so bad, my teeth hurt just to read it.

There is a slightly smaller footprint Electric implementation if you use some closer-in "natural" termination points for "Phase One" "urban" EMU service. (I pick these to avoid Belmont and Melrose NIMBYs, for example, and focus on places that would use the service to further densify)

- Anderson/Woburn as the terminus of the electrified NEC and "inner" EMUs
- North Cambridge/Alewife as the terminus of "inner" EMUs
- Lynn as EMU terminus/tranfer
- West Station (or Newton Crowne Plaza, or Riverside as shown)
- RTE 128 as terminus for electrified Indigo

Then send the DMUs out to the termini you show above, and have the DMUs run express from the EMU termini to berths at SS or NS.
 
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Re: North-South Rail Link

I want this so bad, my teeth hurt just to read it.

There is a slightly smaller footprint Electric implementation if you use some closer-in "natural" termination points for "Phase One" "urban" EMU service. (I pick these to avoid Belmont and Melrose NIMBYs, for example, and focus on places that would use the service to further densify)

- Anderson/Woburn as the terminus of the electrified NEC and "inner" EMUs
- North Cambridge/Alewife as the terminus of "inner" EMUs
- Lynn as EMU terminus/tranfer
- West Station (or Newton Crowne Plaza, or Riverside as shown)
- RTE 128 as terminus for electrified Indigo

Then send the DMUs out to the termini you show above, and have the DMUs run express from the EMU termini to berths at SS or NS.

That makes a lot of sense. I suppose as long as turnouts/tail tracks can be used to allow passing Commuter Rail/DMUs it would work fine, but it would probably cut down on DMU frequencies to the "middle terminals" between the EMU terminals and the commuter rail terminals.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

While I'm all for this project I still can't figure out how the trains will get through the South Station head house. Will they go around it, under it? Through it?



Probably the only thing that they'll do now is maybe to initiate a bus or shuttle bus service, quite similar to the bus service at Logan Airport, or maybe another Silverline service by the MBTA.

I don't see them digging up anything again, especially after motorists having had to deal with & endure nearly 16 or so years of the Big Dig, forcing them to have to work their way around all those shortcomings & headaches that were associated with the then mega construction project. :eek:
 
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Re: North-South Rail Link

How about a fast and easy(?) phase one - a north station to south station trolley in one of the tubes?
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Everyone with configuration and operational questions should go back and read F-Lines analysis upthread

The dirt-filled-void that was threaded between/below the Central Artery tunnel has very strict dimensions:
- limited entry points
- steep grades (to pass over/under other tunnels, like Red, Blue, & ramps)
- narrow path (4-track, not much platform space)
- requiring cavern stations bored under South and North stations

As much as we'd like shallower, gentler, cheaper approaches from the South, and we'd like closer-to-the-surface new platforms ( fewer steps from South Station Under to connections with the Red, Silver, and CR) the problem is that such alternatives can't be lined up with the very-specific point in space where the filled-void is actually sitting.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

How about a fast and easy(?) phase one - a north station to south station trolley in one of the tubes?

You will always need to link any rail infrastructure to existing outside rail infrastructure for maintenance/layover possibilities, among other necessary activities that are impossible in a disconnected track. So, there would need to be a portal to the green line, which is not easy, as the green line is level with, and on the other side of, the orange line at North Station from where this tunnel would be constructed. So probably "doable," but not easy.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

How about a fast and easy(?) phase one - a north station to south station trolley in one of the tubes?
I think you'll need (lots of) funding help from the Feds, which means getting political support from Maine & RI (which is why I revivied this thread...Sen Collins and Sen Reed are well-positioned), which favors Tube 1 being a 2-track extension of the NEC to Woburn.

Again, read F-Line. He's got a lot of hard-to-argue conclusions

- Postpone the other 2 track tunnel for some rapid transit project 40 years from now.
- Leave a stub for Old Colony portal/approach but don't build it.
- No Central Station (too expensive to excavate, too likely to gum things up, lots of cheaper ways to promote "local" circulation along the Surface Artery)
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

How about a fast and easy(?) phase one - a north station to south station trolley in one of the tubes?


The same idea from the Silverline service to & from Logan Airport? I'm afraid that they dropped the ball on THIS plan, simply because they had the chance to do it when the Big Dig was being done.

Anything that they might try to come up with now, other than some type of bus service would certainly disrupt traffic again, and no one is going to want to have to go through another astronomically long waiting period to see a trolley plan become a reality. :eek:
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

AFAIK, DMUs will not be allowed through the link. Only electrics, EMUs or dual-mode locomotives will be able to enter the Link.

That's really the big expense. Buying new fleets of vehicles and electrifying lines that will be using the link. NEC is already electrified, but there's no capacity for any 'MU frequency routes along the NEC.

The issue from through-running as I see it, is that every northern line (Fitchburg, Lowell, Haverhill, and Newburyport/Rockport) has both the capacity and the demand for some sort of inner 'MU-type service. Of the southern routes, only Framingham/Worcester and Fairmount have the capacity and the demand to implement 15-18 minute headways.

Worcester can handle it with signal and passing track upgrades. Fairmount is already ready for RT-like service.

Old Colony can't handle high headways due to the pinch in Dorchester. Removing that pinch is a megaproject all its own. Old Colony probably won't get a portal into the Link until that's done. It's fiscally a dead end.

The NEC will be handling both higher frequencies of Amtrak service as well as higher MBCR traffic - especially after the Link is built. Projected congestion on the NEC will already eventually box out the Needham Line by choking it to death, so there won't be any capacity on the NEC for an 'MU line to Needham. Needham's getting choked to death by the NEC's growth and will eventually need to be replaced with a Green/Orange paired extension. That means there won't be any 'MUs running 18 minute headways on the NEC. The capacity isn't there now and won't be there in the future.

If routed along the Fairmount, the Franklin Line could probably handle high headway service to Norwood or Walpole.

The first southern Link portal to be built will be for the NEC, which will likely also include access for the Worcester Line (which would need at least partial electrification). The northern portal will likely be able to include both the Lowell Line and the Eastern and Western Routes (electrified). Fitchburg will probably never get one. Problem is, the Worcester Line will only be able to handle one high headway 'MU line (pick a through-run option to Lowell, Reading or Salem/Peabody).

With the initial build there's no other option for routing 18 min headway 'MUs through the link. That leaves any 'MUs running on the remaining four northern lines to terminate on the surface at North Station.

The next priority should probably be electrification and portal construction for Fairmount and maybe some of Franklin. There won't be as much demand for an RER to the Fairmount since there's no employment centers along it. Commuters will take a Link-running train to South Station, but not many will stay on beyond that because the Fairmount runs through residential neighborhoods. That lack of demand, and the high costs of building the portal and electrifying the line will make this one a political battle, but it's still probably the easiest way to get another high-headway line through the link.

Old Colony will have to wait until the Dorchester mess is funded and fixed, and Needham is getting squeezed on its existing schedule, let alone at higher headways.

Realistically, as far as transformational 'MU-type service goes, the most to expect is two high-headway,through-running routes (something like Lowell - Riverside and Peabody - Walpole). That's it.

EDIT:

Here's something like what I'd envision for post-Link 'MU service, once two southern portals are built:

Indigo Lines Map

There would be two through routing lines From the South side. One from Riverside or Framingham, and one from Dedham or Norwood. On the north side, only two lines would receive those trains (if high headways are to be maintained). Pick two from Peabody, Reading, or Lowell. The Fitchburg line's 'MUs will always terminate on the surface at North Station.

That Indigo map would be amazing, youre right on the link needing EMUs, I completely forgot about that whole ventilation thing. I definitely think an early pitch of new EMUs and the link as a "whole new rapid transit line through downtown Boston" would sell pretty well to the public, with lines being electrified and equipment upgraded gradually to reduce some of the cost. It would be a lot easier to swallow as new "subway service" between North and South station and several key developments and neighborhoods. If designed just for CR right off the bat, I believe there would be much greater resistance to the project as people wont truly understand the actual benefits of thru-running and electrification.

Also, what would the link mean for the proposed DMU along the Grand Junction? Would that cease to be a thing, or would it get some other usage? I dont see the need to send trains through the heart of Cambridge with the link being built, but I could definitely see some people getting up in arms about loss of service if the proposed Cambridge Indigo stop is removed. Maybe then would be the time to really go balls to the wall, and implement the Urban Ring too with Green Line/BRT through Cambridge.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

How about a fast and easy(?) phase one - a north station to south station trolley in one of the tubes?

In addition to the things already mentioned, I feel like this could be run through/above the Greenway if the demand was really seen to be there. With trains traveling at such extreme frequencies between the two through the link, I just dont see the need for a dedicated RT line between the two.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

That Indigo map would be amazing, youre right on the link needing EMUs, I completely forgot about that whole ventilation thing. I definitely think an early pitch of new EMUs and the link as a "whole new rapid transit line through downtown Boston" would sell pretty well to the public, with lines being electrified and equipment upgraded gradually to reduce some of the cost. It would be a lot easier to swallow as new "subway service" between North and South station and several key developments and neighborhoods. If designed just for CR right off the bat, I believe there would be much greater resistance to the project as people wont truly understand the actual benefits of thru-running and electrification.

That's the smart way to politically introduce it. Which means that the state definitely won't do it that way. ;)

Also, what would the link mean for the proposed DMU along the Grand Junction? Would that cease to be a thing, or would it get some other usage? I dont see the need to send trains through the heart of Cambridge with the link being built, but I could definitely see some people getting up in arms about loss of service if the proposed Cambridge Indigo stop is removed. Maybe then would be the time to really go balls to the wall, and implement the Urban Ring too with Green Line/BRT through Cambridge.

In my opinion the DMU to North Station from Riverside is a no-go anyway. But yes, with the the NSRL it becomes redundant. Best to save GJ for the Urban Ring (as LRV) rather than trying to shoe-horn an 'MU through Kendall's gut.


Nexis4jersey said:
Whats the pinch in Dorchester?

The Old Colony Line goes down to one track through Dorchester, which severely limits the line's capacity. That could be fixed by stacking the reds (Ashmont over Braintree) and opening up a second track for OCL. Until that mega-project happens though, there's no point in hooking Old Colony up to the link.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Store this one under when do we get to vote for Chelsea -- as in Clinton ;)

No money for a N-S tunnel in the foreseeable future -- i.e. No chance of any start before 2030

On the other hand its not inconceivable that a DMU or EMU could travel from NS to SS via Cambridge-Kendall Station and Alston-West Station
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Store this one under when do we get to vote for Chelsea -- as in Clinton ;)

No money for a N-S tunnel in the foreseeable future -- i.e. No chance of any start before 2030

On the other hand its not inconceivable that a DMU or EMU could travel from NS to SS via Cambridge-Kendall Station and Alston-West Station

I'm amazed at your lack of imagination of the foreseeable future when it comes to finances, when it works so well on things like the coming ice age...
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Waterfront plan should preserve tunnel for future North-South Rail Link

There are currently no legal protections for the alignment, but it represents the best available option for someday linking North Station and South Station. That connection, if built, would greatly reduce commuter-rail bottlenecks while also allowing Amtrak passengers to make speedier connections to northern New England. Most of it would run under the Rose Kennedy Greenway, but some would go underneath privately held land.

That’s usually not a problem; tunnel borers routinely burrow under existing structures without incident. But some of the development plans percolating on the waterfront call for huge buildings whose compatibility with a tunnel underneath is less certain. One potential issue is the 30-story tower proposed for the Hook Lobster site next to Fort Point Channel. Buildings that height are currently not allowed, but the Boston Redevelopment Authority’s zoning study is expected to consider relaxing the height limitations, potentially opening the way for a new tower on that site.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...h-rail-link/9sUL8Z71iaNiFl9FP090kO/story.html
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Waterfront plan should preserve tunnel for future North-South Rail Link



http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...h-rail-link/9sUL8Z71iaNiFl9FP090kO/story.html

I saw talk about there being serious vibrations and what not from all the link traffic, but how would it be different than a traditional subway? I'm not getting into the "if" they should build this building discussion, but how hard would it be to design this without screwing over the link?

Also, have the developers considered asking the T to fund construction? How better to cap off a potential "Central Station" than with a 30 story headhouse?
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I saw talk about there being serious vibrations and what not from all the link traffic, but how would it be different than a traditional subway?

It probably has to do with where pilings would go. The link tunnel has a very prescribed path, and if poorly planned development gets in the way, it would obstruct that path.

I'm not getting into the "if" they should build this building discussion, but how hard would it be to design this without screwing over the link?

Who knows? Without looking at the developers plans, plus an exact pathway that the link tunnel would take we don't know what mitigation would look like.

Also, have the developers considered asking the T to fund construction? How better to cap off a potential "Central Station" than with a 30 story headhouse?

My opinion is that Central Station will be trashed if the NSRL is ever actually build. It's superfluous bloat, very expensive, provides minimal utility and is difficult to engineer. Also, Central Station would be sited near the Aquarium Blue Line station (the whole point is the Blue Line transfer). The Long Wharf Mariott isn't going anywhere. Chiofaro has enough to worry about without planning a massive train infrastructure project tacked on to his dream tower.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

What about a BRT so the SL-1 from Chelsea can use it, too? On the Greenway or in the tunnel? Screw the South-Shorers!
 

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