Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

citylover94 said:
I just want to point out these blocks aren't even close to being superblocks.

The west end has super blocks the seaport definitely does not especially considering some of the lots are going to be subdivided by more roads than they are currently.

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See the difference
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I would argue that Fan Pier (21 contiguous acres) and Seaport Square (23 contiguous acres) are pretty much quintessential Superblock developments. Yes they have interstitial streets (that is allowed in Superblocks), but they are unified developments with the major traffic flow around the periphery on the larger streets (Northern Ave., Seaport Blvd. and Congress, with a lesser definition by B and Summer Street. (And D playing in other parts of the area)
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

JeffDowntown said:
I get all your points except the more tax revenue. That part we gave away in all the tax incentives in the district.
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But tax incentives are exogenous here; they're unrelated to the question of FAR. If anything, incentives may likely be more generous if a lower FAR was stipulated.

With the tax incentives being what they are, revenue from high FAR is still much greater than revenue from low FAR.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

This argument that these aren't superblocks misses the forest for the trees. They're fat buildings with zero fine-grained development.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Wouldn't the price of the land at the Seaport determine what would get built? For a developer to maximize the return on the money, wouldn't the building have to just about take up the whole piece of property, just as the rents on an apartment or the price of a condo would have to be sky high? I'll also say that as the Seaport building out continues, so does the variety and style of the buildings improve. One Seaport Square, the M parcels, the Yotel hotel, Envoy Hotel, 121 Seaport Blvd, the Pier 4 office building and the Pier 4 Condo building, 22 Liberty and 50 Liberty, Watermark Seaport, the chapel and the new building alongside it are all quite different from a fat, glass cube (which I find attractive in it's own simplicity). It seems that as the Seaport builds out the buildings coming on line are more and more unique and interesting.
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

atlantaden said:
Wouldn't the price of the land at the Seaport determine what would get built? For a developer to maximize the return on the money, wouldn't the building have to just about take up the whole piece of property, just as the rents on an apartment or the price of a condo would have to be sky high?
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Prices are set by what a buyer is willing to pay. If FAR was lower and less was allowed to be built, then the price of undeveloped land would fall accordingly.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

JumboBuc said:
Prices are set by what a buyer is willing to pay. If FAR was lower and less was allowed to be built, then the price of undeveloped land would fall accordingly.
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You know it doesn't always work that way.

Yes, what can be built is one of the factors, but location and scarcity are others.

A buildable lot in Back Bay might go for more than the same square feet of land in the Seaport, because location, location, location. (and scarcity) (Might not though because of different usage potential, both play a factor). (Tried to test this but cannot find a clean recent transaction in Back Bay).
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The superblocks could have worked for the area if they had a proper infrastructure plan.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

JeffDowntown said:
You know it doesn't always work that way.

Yes, what can be built is one of the factors, but location and scarcity are others.

A buildable lot in Back Bay might go for more than the same square feet of land in the Seaport, because location, location, location. (and scarcity) (Might not though because of different usage potential, both play a factor). (Tried to test this but cannot find a clean recent transaction in Back Bay).
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Right - prices are set by what a buyer is willing to pay. Buyers take many factors into account when deciding what they are willing to pay, among them location and development potential. So the land value for any given undeveloped lot in the Seaport would be lower if FAR was lower. The fact that undeveloped land in the Back Bay is more expensive has nothing to do with this; we're talking about the price of land conditional on location.

I think we're in agreement here, so I don't understand the "You know it doesn't always work that way"...
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

JumboBuc said:
Right - prices are set by what a buyer is willing to pay. Buyers take many factors into account when deciding what they are willing to pay, among them location and development potential. So the land value for any given undeveloped lot in the Seaport would be lower if FAR was lower. The fact that undeveloped land in the Back Bay is more expensive has nothing to do with this; we're talking about the price of land conditional on location.

I think we're in agreement here, so I don't understand the "You know it doesn't always work that way"...
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OK agreed, we are in agreement. I was just reacting that lower FAR does not necessarily mean lower price, if other factors outweigh the FAR. Ultimately it is the motivation of the buyer (what they are willing to pay), as you said.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

citylover94 said:
I just want to point out these blocks aren't even close to being superblocks.

The west end has super blocks the seaport definitely does not especially considering some of the lots are going to be subdivided by more roads than they are currently.

UUelEod.png


See the difference
Click to expand...

Pedestrian ways break up the West End more than your graphic implies.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

bigpicture7 said:
Not quite the same...West End was a densely-popuated, lived-in area at the time it was leveled...Seaport was a largely un-lived in industrial wasteland (If you read the plaque at fan pier, it talks about the substantial fed-funded environmental remediation that had to happen when those parking lots were produced in place of largely vacant warehouses, etc...this was an industrial area that had left the sites highly contaminated).

I say this largely agreeing with the above comments about the architecture/missed-opportunities, etc...but it's not correct to say that much was lost when this area was leveled.

I think we can be a bit sad about the monolithic / borg-cube-like glass architecture and lack of streetscaping, but, it's not over yet and we've discussed numerous times on this forum plans to improve the streets (new medians with trees etc).

I think I just would have liked to see more Lovejoy Wharf-esque architecture that plays more of an homage to boston's legacy buildings than what we ended up with...or at least a diversity of old-meets-new.
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Fair point. Looks like all the areas we are complaining about were either filled in ocean during the 1970s or rail, plus one or two warehouses of dubious character.

So, really just would have been nice to see one or two new structures weave in some historic character. Maybe especially pier 4 where you had an opportunity to have something that added to the historic character of the waterfront.

No, I wouldn't have preserved Anthony's, but a more distinctive building, architectural feature with a restaurant/pub/entertainment space at the end of the pier would have provided something. Plenty of good architecture to draw on other than the Elkus Manfredi copy paste playbook.

Sure, I guess they are still working on it.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

tangent said:
Fair point.
So, really just would have been nice to see one or two new structures weave in some historic character. Maybe especially pier 4 where you had an opportunity to have something that added to the historic character of the waterfront.
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So, you would have liked more Moakley Courthouse style buildings or Ft. Point style buildings? Brick front, 5 or 6 floors high?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

TheRifleman said:
The writing is on the wall for the Seaport area. Super block suburbia close to the city.
City/state, BRA, Menino, Unions, a complete failure for what the City of Boston should have had in this area.

#1 The amount of taxpayers money swindled to help the unions and developers build this crap.
#2 No rapid transit in the area (Silverline Bus vision is a JOKE) Traffic at certain times unbearable.
#3 The Huge superblocks created a wall against the Harbor (Completely went against everything Chap 91 was supposed to prevent.
#4 No Neighborhood Feel (A bunch of rich out of town yuppies with high-priced condos)
#5 Menino/city created BID, tried for the Greenway tax along with all the tax incentives going to seaport cronies like Fallon and the rest of the development corporation hacks in the area.

SEAPORT is a FAILURE---- No innovation going on just companies relocating from Backbay, Downtown to the Seaport.

Innovation district feels like a corporate box show on Boston's waterfront---Nothing Unique about the developments. The architecture is so underwhelming its ashame.

Missed opportunity by the city/state---just the Democrats buying votes saying this was job creations by giving Fallon, JPM and the rest of the hacks with unlimited tax incentives to get something built.

All the city/state had to do was build a transit system that connected to seaport efficiently for the public and let free markets determining what area should evolve into. Like how Kendall Square evolved. Not force this garbage on Boston's Waterfront.

All the NIMBY's is complaining about Chap 91 but they are allowing all this open space to wall off the city from the harbor now?
You ask how the rich get richer? Why do you give tax breaks to GE, JPM, Fallon to a group of corporations that are building in the most desirable city in the country? WHY? This land would be bought up just on Supply & Demand alone.
No families, no school systems---The Seaport community is a bunch of out-towners with money. High net individuals, or executive paying jobs, or a bunch of rich kids.
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In theory, it would have been nice to build an efficient/effective transit system into the Seaport and let development evolve, but you know how long that could take (Green Line expansion, anyone?). Also, didn't Kendall benefit from a lot of corporate investment and presence into the area as well (biotech, mostly)?

I'm still on the optimistic side of the fence with regards to Seaport. It is very valuable land so of course they have and will continue to develop along the harbor. However, there's also the Harbor Walk so I disagree with your point about Seaport being walled off. Parts of the Walk certainly are currently less accessible, but that is due to the in-progress construction.

The architecture could have been better but there are at least more interesting developments in process or in the pipeline (except Yotel - that looks awful imo).
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I like it at night ^ where's Boston? [URL=http://s301.photobucket.com/user/boston02124/media/2016/IMG_4811_zpsjdkpyl7y.jpg.html]
IMG_4811_zpsjdkpyl7y.jpg
[/URL]
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Seaport looking lowkey thicc this hazy afternoon

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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

A list of South Boston Waterfront Seaport Innovation Fort Point Channel Parking Lot District residential housing projects; completed, under construction, approved, and proposed.

Basically, anything in the 02210 ZIP code, although South Station is 02110 (and the post office uses 02205, and GE is using 02212, inexplicably).

For several of the "proposed" and "approved" I had to guess at # of units, using the square footage numbers found online and dividing by an average 800-square foot unit.

Additions, corrections, please respond.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uqwFGFmJOMBJnee-mNZRiwegBhUa34cHmAt41sdAaEA/edit?usp=sharing
 
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