Seaport Square (Formerly McCourt Seaport Parcels)

czsz said:
No offense intended to HenryAlan, but I've noticed that when forumers tend to speak positively of Boston developments that are widely regarded as failures or failures-in-progress (the Greenway, Seaport, etc.) they're visiting on festival days when there tends to be much more life in these places than usual.
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I live in Southie, and I'm down the Seaport at least once a week, whether it be for lunch/dinner or just drinks. The Seaport is ALWAYS busy. Busy to the point I won't even bother going down on a Friday or Saturday night in the summer because it's just to long of a wait for a table or seat at a bar.
 
That might reflect the lack of restaurants and bars relative even to limited demand more than total busyness.
 
HenryAlan said:
I think we all know a place works if it draws people, does not work if it doesn't. What is the magical draw? In this particular case it was a festival event, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of other options. The point to keep in mind is that the space works and works well when people are there. A real failure not only wouldn't currently attract people, but would also not be able to handle the crowd if it did. We can fix the first issue, the second is pretty much permanent (eg Government Center).
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No, I think a space needs to be able to draw people whether or not there is a preprogrammed event. Urban space needs to work on some level 24/7, not just when a crowd is gathered there for reasons other than the timeless quality of that space.

The problem with Govt Center is actually the opposite of what you've diagnosed. It can hold a massive crowd during an event fairly well, and the only time the space is ever complimented is after a major sports victory (when the "but where will we have massive celebrations if this space is eroded!?" club comes out of the woodwork). At any other time of day or year, the plaza is a ghastly failure.
 
The dozens or possibly hundreds of acres of the Seaport already built out by Massport is an EPIC FAIL. The only solution to "fix" the area is throwing more and more money at programming every year -- nothing organic will happen without priming the pump. This area can't be "fixed" in, say, the way the Greenway can be "fixed."

To visit Liberty Wharf or a festival and suggest the Seaport is reaching even a mediocre standard for the entire waterfront is, IMO, ridiculous. "Busy" is not good enough.

The Greenway, on the other hand, will improve over time with new density abutting its edges.
 
Sicilian said:
The dozens or possibly hundreds of acres of the Seaport already built out by Massport is an EPIC FAIL. The only solution to "fix" the area is throwing more and more money at programming every year -- nothing organic will happen without priming the pump. This area can't be "fixed" in, say, the way the Greenway can be "fixed."
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FIX:

Pull out the plans from the 1890s to sell off the newly reclaimed back bay as small lots.

Copy/Paste

Fixed.
 
czsz said:
No, I think a space needs to be able to draw people whether or not there is a preprogrammed event. Urban space needs to work on some level 24/7, not just when a crowd is gathered there for reasons other than the timeless quality of that space.

The problem with Govt Center is actually the opposite of what you've diagnosed. It can hold a massive crowd during an event fairly well, and the only time the space is ever complimented is after a major sports victory (when the "but where will we have massive celebrations if this space is eroded!?" club comes out of the woodwork). At any other time of day or year, the plaza is a ghastly failure.
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Not sure you got what I meant, so I will try to clarify. Government Center can't draw people well without an event, because it is surrounded by civic buildings that are of little use to the public. Without the event, there cannot be a more natural, organic draw. The seaport at this time, might also need an event (though Cliff and others have suggested this is not true). If it is true that it needs an event, it is not true that it will always need one. There are now and will soon be more buildings with commercial purpose. The seaport has a chance to bring people to the area that Government Center will never be able to do.

Also, and I mean no disrespect, but have you been there lately? I read these threads on archboston and get the impression that the area is irredeemable, but then every now and then I have a reason to go there, and find that it's actually pretty nice, though incomplete. When was the last time you went there?
 
^HenryAlan

That's an optimistic view of a district defined by buildings with large footprints, each having zero ground floor activation or (at best) active along one streetwall, large setbacks to curbside, endless plazas, heavily landscaped parklets and 4+ lanes between curbs. And no end to this urban design in sight.

Liberty Wharf is successful because tidelands regs required public activation of its ground floors. Same goes for other area ground level success stories (ICA, Atlantic Wharf) You can't extrapolate the success of the entire district based on what you see at the waters edge. The future is already evident inland from Liberty Wharf.

Are you really suggesting people who visit would enjoy walking around the Seaport Hotel, Fidelity towers, Rennaissance, etc.? I'm there all the time and it ain't so. Pedestrians, even during festivals, are lonely there. Not much different than walking from Haymarket down the solitude of Congress Street on a Saturday, only this district is a waterfront with infinite potential.
 
I'm talking about the water's edge. Pier 4 will continue this activation. Further inland will take longer. Is it true of any other part of the city that every block is interesting? Is this even a reasonable demand?
 
Henry, it's entirely reasonable to suggest that the building type and layout currently contemplated on the Seaport, further buttressed by plazas, setbacks and wide boulevards, are at a low standard compared to any host of waterfronts undergoing transformations worldwide.

I didn't suggest every block be interesting. I pointed out that inland at areas built out (Seaport Hotel, Fidelity, Rennaissance, etc.), not one block is interesting.

And I explained why the edges are beginning to play out nicely, along with new docks, piers and programming. Regulatory forces were involved in the decision-making, none of which are operating inland.
 
czsz said:
That might reflect the lack of restaurants and bars relative even to limited demand more than total busyness.
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There's a ton of restaurants. The waterfront has become a destination for restaurants. But Sicilian is right. The success or failure of the district will be determined by the buildout of the bulk of the area - the remaining acres that are inland.
 
Sicilian said:
The dozens or possibly hundreds of acres of the Seaport already built out by Massport is an EPIC FAIL. The only solution to "fix" the area is throwing more and more money at programming every year -- nothing organic will happen without priming the pump. This area can't be "fixed" in, say, the way the Greenway can be "fixed."
.
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I'm usually on board with you on many things, but even leaving out that the term you used is a silly term that should be put to bed.... it is grossly misused here as the Massport parcels are quite successful.

They seem to succeed despite their many blemishes, and a continued growth around them will only further the success of this area. As I've said before I'm amazed that this area actually functions and you can forget you are in the middle of no where when you are there, especially at night.

The street walls of the WTC towers have been over analyzed so I won't touch them again. Park Lane is a horrendous mess to look at. But, the area still functions and draws people. Adding 24 acres of homes, offices, etc. next to it as Seaport Square, the already seen growth at Fan Pier, the groundbreaking and future growth at Waterside will all add to the action and help to hide some of the blemishes at the Massport land.

I am the ever present optimist, but I feel I need to be here against the OVER pessimism you show. We know what's there is not ideal, buit to label it the way you have is over the top and even a little unfair. I don't often defend corporations, so it was tough saying unfair....
 
SeamusMcFly said:
I am the ever present optimist, but I feel I need to be here against the OVER pessimism you show. ...
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I don't believe its about the Optimists vs the pessimists. I think the reality to the Seaport District will be wow this is NICE or Okay rather than the reality of What could have been in an area that had unlimited opportunity.

The vision for Seaport is nothing more short-sighted. Tax-breaks, box buildings, restaurants on the pier. Nothing that will actually make me go out of my way to bring my family to a destination spot in the area besides the Children's Muesuem.

Seaport in the end will have corporations, with some housing (Big Deal) this should have been one of the best development spots in the city. Instead its a massive Tax incentives for all the developers that purchased land or are building in the area. Its a JOKE.

(See how fast Fallon & Hynes sell whatever they build.) Nothing of real wealth or value for the city or taxpayers. Route128 by the water near the city.
 
TheRifleman said:
I don't believe its about the Optimists vs the pessimists. I think the reality to the Seaport District will be wow this is NICE or Okay rather than the reality of What could have been in an area that had unlimited opportunity.

The vision for Seaport is nothing more short-sighted. Tax-breaks, box buildings, restaurants on the pier. Nothing that will actually make me go out of my way to bring my family to a destination spot in the area besides the Children's Muesuem.

Seaport in the end will have corporations, with some housing (Big Deal) this should have been one of the best development spots in the city. Instead its a massive Tax incentives for all the developers that purchased land or are building in the area. Its a JOKE.

(See how fast Fallon & Hynes sell whatever they build.) Nothing of real wealth or value for the city or taxpayers. Route128 by the water near the city.
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Is it the waterfront restaurants, museums, convention center, art exhibits, brewery or concert venue that make it like Rt. 128?
 
ParkerChris said:
Is it the waterfront restaurants, museums, convention center, art exhibits, brewery or concert venue that make it like Rt. 128?
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The location makes it the waterfront (Seaport).....with Restaurents, art exhibits, and concert venue.

The box buildings & Condo developments make it look like Route128 development scene
 
TheRifleman said:
The location makes it the waterfront (Seaport).....with Restaurents, art exhibits, and concert venue.

The box buildings & Condo developments make it look like Route128 development scene
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Isn't the only real comparison the height of the buildings, which are under FAA restrictions?
 
I was there yesterday too much walking to get anywhere!
july4th2012142.jpg
 
ParkerChris said:
Isn't the only real comparison the height of the buildings, which are under FAA restrictions?
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Footprint, footprint, footprint!

How many times does this need to be repeated until it sinks in?
 
statler said:
Footprint, footprint, footprint!

How many times does this need to be repeated until it sinks in?
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Understood - but in most cases (state street being the only one I can think of) footprints are very similar to that of taller office buildings.

The condos to come.. a different story, but nonetheless the "suburb by the water" comparison is not a fair one, or a correct one.
 
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