Seaport Square (Formerly McCourt Seaport Parcels)

The Seaport has the same problem the RKG has. The roads suck.
 
cca said:
My $0.02

The high price of land pushes out the multi-parcel block concepts for most established cities. This seems to be a universal law of economics. There is no mechanism for forcing multi-parcel blocks on the market. And, why would you.

Given this fact, protection and appreciation for the existing older fabric of the city (north end, south end, back bay, boston wharf) is important to the city so that there can be a plurality of places to have different experiences. This is what makes a rich and engaging city. Midtown, or Downtown Manhattan means nothing without the Soho, the Village, or Harlem. And visa versa.
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I like the rationality of your point.

But Seaport/ID land prices are high for a few reasons beyond ordinary economics (e.g. market forces):

1. Public infrastructure investment, upwards of $8 billion in the immediate area. Among these are CA/Tunnel access, MBTA Silver Line and tunnels, Harbor cleanup, BCEC, etc.
2. Ongoing public and private obligations, for example Innovation District subsidies, promotion and temporary projects, BIC, ICA land, etc.

And there are other factors which increase development costs:

1. A host of opaque exactions by the BRA -- "community benefits," "linkage," "sinking fund," etc.
2. A host of offsite projects required of developers by the BRA.
3. Speculators have increased price by flipping vacant parcels after upzoning. New owners are paying a premium (to speculators) for unbuilt parcels carrying development rights pre-approved by the BRA.

Whether you look at speculation in the sale of vacant parcels enriched by public investment, or you look at the BRA's exactions from property owners and developers, or you look at the speculative market in the sale of development rights, the result is a net decrease in dollars available for onsite improvements.

All of the above were (and are) in the domain of the BRA in its management of each project.
 
WHY?
BRA Planning,

#1 Seaport District Rebranded to (Innovation District)
#2 Trying to follow the Kendal Square Model--> stealing the Biotechs.

#3 Continues to ignore the most important aspect of the entire development area, an efficient transit for the location.
Lets face it the Silverline sucks.
The area needs more underground hardrail stops in the area.
Maybe a trolley going up and down the strip like SF style

#4 The Fan Pier deverlopment already seems like 128 Development Box building overlooking the water.
(I guess you really can't complain about somebody's taste but seriously 70 Million of our dollars in this shit?)

The only thing going for the Seaport is the Restaurant Strip. Remy's, Del Friscos, Mexican joint, Legals, which is no-brainer. Wait till the parking is gone that might be a problem.
Everybody out late will be waiting for the Silverline. What time does the T shut down.

I would have had more faith in McCourt developing the entire area than what is going on now with our tax dollars.
Unlimited opportunity turns out mediocre at best.
 
At the Skyscraper event last week, Shen was big on private buildings and developers that reap benefits from public investment (like the silver line) contribute to the community through these linkages, mitigates, extractions, extortions, whatever your view point is. And I have to admit I am not settled in how I feel about them. Of course they higher development costs, but developers are not going poor. The real question that has to be answered in my mind is would we get a better public space around better private buildings built for "better" (read: more desired uses)? To be honest, I have no idea what the answer is. I mean rich people would presumably still want to live in the city on the water and rich companies would still want wide floor prints with parking garages. Would developers then be inclined to build more ornate structures?

Personally, I think the city should zone for the heights and as of right uses it wants to promote, make it transparent what the desired public amenities are (i.e. parkland) and make it transparent what the contribution should be ($.01/sqft- whatever your metric is). But that just seems like a more transparent way to do the same think that's being done. I'd be interested to hear others thoughts on the practical impact of what are laudable and practical reforms that could be made in the development process.
 
^^^^
A good developer or a builder needs a long-term view with their own personal stake in the project. That usually will get something built of quality with a solid group of investors looking out very long-term.

I think these govt handouts create fast-buck freddies and they move onto to another project once they get this one built with cheap materials. It's all about the margins & cash flow.
 
I do agree with 02124's comment earlier about walking. I'm perfectly fit, but it just feels like you do an unnecessary amount of walking in the Seaport to get virtually nowhere. I think it's honestly just boredom because you're walking by nothing but parking lots. Eventually when the area is finally filled out with proper blocks and developments and such, I think this psychological effect will dissolve, at least somewhat. In the meantime, I do enjoy going down to the ICA at least 2 thursdays each month though. I just wish there was more to do.

Half of the challenge is crossing Seaport Blvd near the WTC. They need to take down that stupid fence and space out more effective crosswalks.
 
I think these govt handouts create fast-buck freddies and they move onto to another project once they get this one built with cheap materials. It's all about the margins & cash flow.
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I think a-lot of developers are in and out of a project ASAP because the institutional money that's invested in development now is usually kept at arm's length. So you've got a situation where an entity like CalPERS invests in a 7 year private equity real estate fund with a hard close date. The fund needs to liquidate all assets by the end of the 7 years. Contrast that with back in the day when you had Prudential working hand in hand with a developer (instead of a money aggregator) to build the Pru.
The New Balance development is the exception to the norm these days.
 
TheRifleman said:
WHY?
BRA Planning,

#1 Seaport District Rebranded to (Innovation District)
#2 Trying to follow the Kendal Square Model--> stealing the Biotechs.
.....
#4 The Fan Pier deverlopment already seems like 128 Development Box building overlooking the water...The only thing going for the Seaport is the Restaurant Strip. Remy's, Del Friscos, Mexican joint, Legals, which is no-brainer. Wait till the parking is gone that might be a problem.
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Riff -- the barrel is fouled and needs cleaning again -- I think you might be firing some rounds loaded about 10 years ago

Talk to EnerNoc -- not a Biotech stollen from Kendall -- rather an Energy management Company moving from the Financial District -- just as any downtown firm might move to the Back Bay -- PS they apparently paid their landlord to quit their lease - -so they must have had a good reason to move to Fan Pier in general and One Marina Park Dr. in particular
 
I believe, eneroc is growing real fast and needed more space.
 
AmericanFolkLegend said:
I think a-lot of developers are in and out of a project ASAP because the institutional money that's invested in development now is usually kept at arm's length. So you've got a situation where an entity like CalPERS invests in a 7 year private equity real estate fund with a hard close date. The fund needs to liquidate all assets by the end of the 7 years. Contrast that with back in the day when you had Prudential working hand in hand with a developer (instead of a money aggregator) to build the Pru.
The New Balance development is the exception to the norm these days.
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AMF --its all about ownership -- do you rent or do you own

If you rent -- you make minor superficial changes to make your environment yours -- some potted plants -- perhaps some paint and wall paper

If you own -- you make the house yours -- even if your tennancy is not any more permanent than the renter -- you knock down walls, dig up your gardens, put in new windows

Same is true with office, R&D, etc -- you are MIT, New Ballance, or the MFA -- not likely to be moving in the near future -- lots of walls to move and gardens to dig -- architecture that you like, bizarre paint schemes, etc.

You are some developer doing a project on Spec (e.g. Allexandria in Kendall) -- essentially you are renting -- no particular pride of ownership -- white walls, nothing that will keep the building from selling to the next owner/renter -- just an interchangeable part -- next year it might be part of the portfolio of Boston Properties

The few exceptions with developers of comercial buildings are the Don C's, John Drew's and a few others who "sew their name into the suit" for all to see and they keep the project as part of the family (e.g. Seaport Hotel and World Trade Office Complex)

Where does Fallon fall in this spectrum -- that's the question -- will there still be a Fallon presense in Fan Pier in 15 years?
 
whighlander said:
The few exceptions with developers of comercial buildings are the Don C's, John Drew's and a few others who "sew their name into the suit" for all to see and they keep the project as part of the family (e.g. Seaport Hotel and World Trade Office Complex)

Where does Fallon fall in this spectrum -- that's the question -- will there still be a Fallon presense in Fan Pier in 15 years?
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That is the difference between building a quality building compared to a builder looking for his next project. Private money, Private stake, Long-term investors that believe in an area. Fan Pier should have had it all.

I actually really like Drews rendering proposal for the Seaport District.

Fallon sells out next year.......That is why I'm so GRIM on the Fan Pier development site. 3rd rate development for a 1st rate location.
 
^ok for another time VERTEX got the tax break, not fallon. Fallon benefitted from public infrastructure investment but is a private citizen. And the build is still ugly. Private money built Park Lane as well. Also not particularly nice. So your assertion that if its private its good is missing Whigh's point entirely.
 
choo said:
^ok for another time VERTEX got the tax break, not fallon. Fallon benefitted from public infrastructure investment but is a private citizen. And the build is still ugly. Private money built Park Lane as well. Also not particularly nice. So your assertion that if its private its good is missing Whigh's point entirely.
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Lets get this straight. Fallon got the tax break because he paid too much for the land. This was the favor Menino got from Deval Patrick for his re-election bid.

The deal is like we are giving Vertex the tax break but in reality they are just paying cheaper rents why the taxpayers cover the overage of the costs. That is not the taxpayers job to persuade private company to move from one location of the city to another. That is private developer Fallon job.

Private money can lead to bad taste also, but with private money its a Bet.
success or failure.......then bankruptcy. This is what gives the system balance.

Govt Handouts can last a very long-time with the same hacks collecting them. The Mayor and his cronies have been sucking on the system for almost 30 years.

Thats my point. The taxpayers are being Looted to get this area developed at all costs.


This is very postive news for Fallon EnerNOC moving to Fan Pier
 
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Fading Into ObscurityNeglected, Old Fashioned And Increasingly Dull, What Will Become Of Boston’s Financial District?

By Scott Van Voorhis

Banker & Tradesman Columnist
Boston’s ailing Financial District looks more irrelevant by the day, a ghostly monument to the stifling corporate bureaucracies of the 1970s. The question now is not whether it’s dead, but who killed it? And can this beached whale be revived, or is it simply fated to slowly rot away while other downtown Boston neighborhoods sparkle?
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http://www.bankerandtradesman.com/news150858.html

Need to be a subscriber.

So let me get this straight as we continue to pump hundreds of millions of our tax dollars into the Fan Pier/Seaport Area. The politicans who are involved in this process are letting the financial district private industry go to shit. How can the financial district landlords compete against tax free money?
Another great way to destroy the private industry
 
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Except every time a forumer here says some destination was "packed," it's either because of some special event or is contradicted by photographic evidence to the contrary.

I think we're probably working with different definitions. "Packed" means different things to someone living in the city vs. daytripping there from Walpole. "Packed" means something different on a busy street vs. a large park, and it's also hard to know which standard to apply to a sort of park/boulevard hybrid like the Greenway.
 
This past May 19th..a Saturday evening, we (7 of us) ate down at Del Frisco's, Liberty Wharf! Beautiful evening and yes, I'll say, all the restaurants at Liberty Wharf were (I hate to use the work packed but...) PACKED!! :) And there were lines to get into both Del Frisco's and Legal Seafoods when we arrived around 8:45 and when we left and that was around 11 pm! You'd never know there was a recession going on! Our server said that since Del Frisco's opened, this particular restaurant has set new records for attendance and revenue's for their chain. The street and harbor area around Liberty Wharf was very active, people everywhere! We had stopped first at Drink (very cool venue) in the Ft. Point area of Congress St. A wait to get in (7:30 or so and lines up the stairs and out the door when we left around 8:30 to head over to Del Frisco's! Love, love the Ft. Point area of the city! Talked to a few people who lived in the neighborhood and they said they wouldn't live anywhere else in the city! Just my quick take on 'packed!"
 
See, here you're referring to individual establishments being "packed", which again is most likely the result of a constraint in supply, not the overall popularity of the area. How packed was the area between Liberty Wharf and Drink? These places are crowded because 1) there's novelty value in them and 2) there still aren't that many places to go in the area relative to new residents / hotel patrons / office workers and conference attendees.

"Packed" is the new "soar".
 
LOL, Times Square it ain't!!!!! The night before we ate at the Legal's in Park Square...restaurant was full up, the streets surrounding the restaurant were busy! Drinks later in the North End at Bricco's, a bit quieter but Hanover St. very, very busy (refuse to use the 'P' word!!!) Having said that, you know how the North End is, narrow streets, lots of street level restaurants and retail with apartments above. Much, much busier than Ft. Point Channel streets was the next evening! It sure does depend on the venue, for sure!
 
See, here you're referring to individual establishments being "packed", which again is most likely the result of a constraint in supply, not the overall popularity of the area.
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CZ, there's over a dozen new restaurants in the stretch of a couple blocks. I don't know how you can say there's a constraint in supply (where were these people going before?). If there's 15 new restaurants in the area, and they all seem to be doing brisk business, doesn't that reflect the overall popularity of the area?
It kills me that you sit and dump on people's in-person observations from 200 miles away.
 
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