Seaport Square (Formerly McCourt Seaport Parcels)

The entire project of "The Seaport" or whatever you want to call it, is only ~1/3 done. You want to judge it already? When the Back Bay was 1/3 done, there were only a handful of houses built, no cultural institutions, no public transportation, no businesses, and the project wouldn't be finished for another 16 years or so. God! What a failure that turned out to be!

As is, and again it's only 1/3 finished, the Seaport already had business, transportation, housing, things people want to go to. There are still some parking lots? The Back Bay still had festering swamp.
 
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underground said:
The entire project of "The Seaport" or whatever you want to call it, is only ~1/3 done. You want to judge it already? When the Back Bay was 1/3 done, there were only a handful of houses built, no cultural institutions, no public transportation, no businesses, and the project wouldn't be finished for another 16 years or so. God! What a failure that turned out to be!

As is, and again it's only 1/3 finished, the Seaport already had business, transportation, housing, things people want to go to. There are still some parking lots? The Back Bay still had festering swamp.
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UG -- exactly -- in fact the Back Bay as we know it -- didn't really exist until about 30+ years after the filling was completed and the original building was finished -- then the houses started to host shops (e.g. Newbury St) and the hotels started to appear (e.g. Fairmont Copley built on site of the MFA)

Indeed --I think when the area from the Reserve to the Fort Point Channels and from the Harbor to about Dorcehster Ave. aka the "Greater SPID" -- is "finished" evolving in a few decades -- it will be toally unrecognizable to people observing the state of development today
 
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underground said:
The entire project of "The Seaport" or whatever you want to call it, is only ~1/3 done. You want to judge it already? When the Back Bay was 1/3 done, there were only a handful of houses built, no cultural institutions, no public transportation, no businesses, and the project wouldn't be finished for another 16 years or so. God! What a failure that turned out to be!
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For what could have been compared to what we get.
#1 Seaport will never live up to its expectations in the long-run because of the poor planning of the Transporation Grid.
Seaport needs (2) Underground Hardrails stops with a Trolly going up and down the strip.
The Silverline will not cut it.
(See: Cambridge & Somervilles Squares become so successful)The Transportation Grid--Location, Location, Location.
LOCATION Backbay, NorthEnd, Greenway, Financial District

#2 These restaurant & Bar scene---The Atlantic Beer Garden, Whiskey Priest need a major makeover....Besides that this will be the only appealing destination area to get people to travel to this area will be the Restaurants on the water. (besides the ICA and Childrens Museum)
(I could see this doing an entire 180 and the Rose Kenndey Greenway becomes the next hot spot for restaurants & Bar scene instead of the Seaport) Rose Kennedy Greenway just has the location, Walking distance from T's, North End, Financial District. Might see the RED CARPET type club on the strip of the RKG.

#3 The Courthouse, Fan Pier Development, Yuppie Condos complex, BCEC.
Nothing really foot traffic friendly or MBTA friendly.

Seaport will feel like a 128 development on the water next to the city.
The positives for the Seaport right now. Childrens Museum, Restaurants, ICA.

Negatives: Should have planned for the MBTA grid. The Silverline is joke. After taking the train in the city no family is going to jump on the Silverline bus to get to the Seaport District when they can walk to the North End, Backbay, Greenway.
Lots of wasteful taxpayers money enriching a bunch of politicans and their personal friends.

When you start to realize that the parking lots might have not been that bad for the area, you know its not developing to its full potential.

This is how I see it developing.
 
TheRifleman said:
For what could have been compared to what we get.
#1 Seaport will never live up to its expectations in the long-run because of the poor planning of the Transporation Grid.
Seaport needs (2) Underground Hardrails stops with a Trolly going up and down the strip.
The Silverline is will not cut it.
(The Transportation Grid has also helped Cambridge & Somervilles Squares become so successful)
LOCATION Backbay, NorthEnd, Greenway, Financial District

#2 These restaurant & Bar scene---The Atlantic Beer Garden, Whiskey Priest need a major makeover....Besides that this will be the only appealing destination area to get people to travel to this area will be the Restaurants on the water. (besides the ICA and Childrens Museum)
(I could see this doing an entire 180 and the Rose Kenndey Greenway becomes the next hot spot for restaurants & Bar scene instead of the Seaport) Rose Kennedy Greenway just has the location, Walking distance from T's, North End, Financial District. Might see the RED CARPET type club on the strip of the RKG.

#3 The Courthouse, Fan Pier Development, Yuppie Condos complex, BCEC.
Nothing really foot traffic friendly or MBTA friendly.

Seaport will feel like a 128 development on the water next to the city.
The positives for the Seaport right now. Childrens Museum, Restaurants, ICA.

Negatives: Should have planned for the MBTA grid. The Silverline is joke. After taking the train in the city no family is going to jump on the Silverline bus to get to the Seaport District when they can walk to the North End, Backbay, Greenway.
Lots of wasteful taxpayers money enriching a bunch of politicans and their personal friends.

This is how I see it developing.
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Riff --drop the Blunderbuss and step away from the thread or read what UG has written about the Back Bay

PS: when was the last time you visited a recent 128 development -- they aren't your grandfathers industrial parks anymore
 
The Courthouse and Fan Pier are a half mile from both the Aquarium and South Station stops. Not foot traffic or MBTA friendly? Give me a break.
 
TheRifleman said:
For what could have been compared to what we get.
#1 Seaport will never live up to its expectations in the long-run because of the poor planning of the Transporation Grid.
Seaport needs (2) Underground Hardrails stops with a Trolly going up and down the strip.
The Silverline will not cut it.
(See: Cambridge & Somervilles Squares become so successful)The Transportation Grid--Location, Location, Location.
LOCATION Backbay, NorthEnd, Greenway, Financial District

#2 These restaurant & Bar scene---The Atlantic Beer Garden, Whiskey Priest need a major makeover....Besides that this will be the only appealing destination area to get people to travel to this area will be the Restaurants on the water. (besides the ICA and Childrens Museum)
(I could see this doing an entire 180 and the Rose Kenndey Greenway becomes the next hot spot for restaurants & Bar scene instead of the Seaport) Rose Kennedy Greenway just has the location, Walking distance from T's, North End, Financial District. Might see the RED CARPET type club on the strip of the RKG.

#3 The Courthouse, Fan Pier Development, Yuppie Condos complex, BCEC.
Nothing really foot traffic friendly or MBTA friendly.

Seaport will feel like a 128 development on the water next to the city.
The positives for the Seaport right now. Childrens Museum, Restaurants, ICA.

Negatives: Should have planned for the MBTA grid. The Silverline is joke. After taking the train in the city no family is going to jump on the Silverline bus to get to the Seaport District when they can walk to the North End, Backbay, Greenway.
Lots of wasteful taxpayers money enriching a bunch of politicans and their personal friends.

When you start to realize that the parking lots might have not been that bad for the area, you know its not developing to its full potential.

This is how I see it developing.
Click to expand...

How is it that you are an expert on everything. You know more about city planning than the city's planning agency. More about restaurants than the people who open restaurants. More about development than developers. the list goes on......
 
I'm pretty sure I find the Seaport more accomodating than anything on the greenway. I like the yearly trip to Tia's after work, but it's a long walk to South Station from there when I need to catch a train. And, I'm not making 2 train changes to get on the commuter line.

Any of the mentioned places in the Seaport are easier escapes in that regard.

If 128 were made of water and was in fact Boston Harbor, I could see the comparison. However, 128 is a major highway with single use office buildings built next to it, in the middle of nowhere, with a deadly traffic back-up everytime you go to work, in your sterile self contained office nightmare. Anywhere in the seaport you can walk otu your door at lunch and find something interesting.

The only, only thing that the seaport and 128 have in common is poor architecture, and fat buildings. The ones on 128 however are wider than they are tall because this is what you do in the burbs and make mile long floor plates which make you hate your life if you work in a gigantic cube farm in them. The floor plates in the Seaport are yes much wider than most of us would like... but we know why that is, and it has been beaten to death.

There is no comparison to 128. None. Let's stick to facts and reality and hope for the best instead of acting as if the seaport has already breathed its death rattle.

Being a negative nellie is one thing, but this doom and gloom in the middle of a building boom (yes I like alliteration) is something else altogether.
 
underground said:
The Courthouse and Fan Pier are a half mile from both the Aquarium and South Station stops. Not foot traffic or MBTA friendly? Give me a break.
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Not to mention, about an 8th of a mile from the Courthouse station. The parking lots are a temporary issue, and I see no reason to think the area won't resemble Fenway on the waterfront when it is all done. The buildings are very similar to what we are seeing in Longwood and along the Brookline/Boylston triangle.

Most folks around here see the new Fenway development as a plus. What is the case to be made that this isn't following a similar pattern? People seem to think that an initial building still surrounded by parking means that's all it will ever be.
 
czsz said:
With regard to the restaurants, the issue is why they are popular, not whether they are .
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They are popular because they are offering, for the most part, a pretty good product. You can argue all day long whether a high end steakhouse is worth the money but the fact is the places in the Seaport are jammed because the food is good. These are not restaurants that are going to win James Beard awards but I have eaten at all the top steakhouses in town and think that Del Frisco's is the best of the lot. Similarly, the Legal Harborside is putting out excellent food that is much better than the standard Legals.

I have eaten at most of the restaurants down in the Seaport at least once and some of them multiple times. While I have only eaten at these places on the weekends, it seems to me like the vast majority of patrons are locals (Greater Boston not Boston residents per say) so I am not buying any argument that it is mostly tourists or convention goers who are keeping these places in business.
 
After watching the entire evolution from the 80's to know with Cambridge & Somerville, I really believe between the colleges and alot of what WHIGH said is correct, MIT vision. That the help of the REDLINE running through all the squares have made it a very successful & desirable location.

I can honestly say I would rather live in Cambridge or Somerville rather than Boston, Backbay or Beacon Hill at this point.
Just a much better vibe these days.

My point is the Hardrails just makes it easy access for the young professionals to live in these most desirable locations without the expense of having a car.

I don't see this for the Seaport area. I see shitty PRE-FAB building developments getting implemented on the backs of the taxpayers. These developers have no long-term interst in this area.......This is a pump & dump development. Make your money and run.

The Seaport will be developed:
Will it be nice? Maybe
Will it suck? Maybe

The one thing I know is
It will never be what it should have been:
MISSED OPPORTUNITY (its going to look like the Fenway area with-out Fenway park) Great!!!......., I actually think they ruined Kenmore Square.
 
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SeamusMcFly said:
I'm pretty sure I find the Seaport more accomodating than anything on the greenway. I like the yearly trip to Tia's after work, but it's a long walk to South Station from there when I need to catch a train. And, I'm not making 2 train changes to get on the commuter line.

Any of the mentioned places in the Seaport are easier escapes in that regard.

If 128 were made of water and was in fact Boston Harbor, I could see the comparison. However, 128 is a major highway with single use office buildings built next to it, in the middle of nowhere, with a deadly traffic back-up everytime you go to work, in your sterile self contained office nightmare. Anywhere in the seaport you can walk otu your door at lunch and find something interesting.

The only, only thing that the seaport and 128 have in common is poor architecture, and fat buildings. The ones on 128 however are wider than they are tall because this is what you do in the burbs and make mile long floor plates which make you hate your life if you work in a gigantic cube farm in them. The floor plates in the Seaport are yes much wider than most of us would like... but we know why that is, and it has been beaten to death.

There is no comparison to 128. None. Let's stick to facts and reality and hope for the best instead of acting as if the seaport has already breathed its death rattle.

Being a negative nellie is one thing, but this doom and gloom in the middle of a building boom (yes I like alliteration) is something else altogether.
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Seamus -- some good points -- but unfortunately like Riff you have a mistaken impression of much of the modern version of Rt-128

Specifically there are lots of multi-use office buildings, a growing number of mid-rise housing complex including town-homes, open-air shopping "villages" and some "hybrid multi-use cores" incorporating all of the above with new streets and parks -- e.g. Northwest Park's redux in Burlington especially 3rd Ave. soon to be featuring Mass' 2nd Wegmans

1.jpg


see:
http://3rdaveburlington.com/
 
TheRifleman said:
The one thing I know is
It will never be what it should have been:
MISSED OPPORTUNITY (its going to look like the Fenway area with-out Fenway park) Great!!!......., I actually think they ruined Kenmore Square.
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Jut to clarify, I wasn't talking about Kenmore, which I agree was completely ruined. Or at least mostly. Look again at the areas I mentioned in my post -- Fenway triangle, LMA. I'm talking about the past decade of construction in those two areas. In each case, we are seeing larger floor plate stumps or land scrapers, lots of emphasis on marquis restaurants for anchor tenants, and only so-so public transit access. Fenway is working and by the standards of most here, becoming one of the most interesting parts of the city. We could all be saying the same about the Seaport five to ten years from now.
 
I think I indicated what is the rule in the 128 area not the exception you indicate above, which is as yet unbuilt.

I recently worked on the Biogen headquarters, that they are smartly moving back out of.

I would shoot myself working in that environment. The cube farm on a 80,000 sq. ft. floor plate is awful and monotonous. The in house cafeterias and cafes and gyms are not enough to make me feel like I have options. These are more ways to keep you in the building. They are like the subsidized food at 245 Summer or 1 Financial. They are nice but they are really to keep the workers at their stations and take shorter breaks.
The development in Weston being one instance. The others along the highway are not much different besides when they are vacant looking for a mega tenant.

You can put lipstick on that particular pig if you believe in it. I know you're metro west so it affects you. The point is, that many people should not have been put there. Boston and Cambridge were big bucks (still are), and this was seen as a cheap solution to build the gigantic floor plates desired by some management. Awful location that forces thousands of people to drive to work, and typically to drive long distances because the population in many of these places does not support the influx of workers.

These corporations belong in metro areas with multiple public transportation options.
 
Rif, I don't understand your hatred for the SilverLine. It's really quite pleasant. And in the Seaport (where it's mostly separated grade) I've found it to be more efficient than the Green Line down Comm Ave (for instance).
And if heavy rail is the only mass transit you'll accept, the Seaport's access is really not all that much worse than the South End. And the South End has done pretty well.
 
Love the Silverline, I'll say it again! I fly into Logan, take the Silverline to South Station, hop on commuter rail to Bridgewater, piece of cake!! Now, coming into Boston for a night on the town, maybe to Liberty Wharf for dinner, I do the reverse, take commuter rail into South Station, hop on the Silver Line to, say, Silver Line way, and walk a block or so to the restaurants! Again, piece of cake! Granted, it's a glorified bus but hey, it works! Buses work well where the heavy rail isn't or can't be!
 
atlantaden said:
Buses work well where the heavy rail isn't or can't be!
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Excellent point - though heavy and light rail expansion should sometimes be the end goal with the bus as an interim solution.
 
AdamBC said:
Excellent point - though heavy and light rail expansion should sometimes be the end goal with the bus as an interim solution.
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Especially when your trying to develop millions of Square Ft in commercial & residential space on a first rate location with serious expansion.

But what do I know.......I'm just a blogger who has no life.
 
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