Seaport Square (Formerly McCourt Seaport Parcels)

They were going out of the neighborhood. Anyway, I take less issue with the idea that individual restaurants are packed (especially given that they're new) and more with the idea that this means the neighborhood is.

I'm 200 miles away right now, but I was last in Boston last week and am around pretty much monthly. When I lived in Cambridge, I'd make it down to the Seaport even less often, but I guess my perspective would have had more legitimacy for you then?
 
Spent a couple of weekends in a row in the Seaport -- I assume, at least, because we were at the Seaport Hotel on one night. I thought the area had a real up-and-coming feel to it. Is this the 'new face' of Boston? When we were at the ICA, the project architect told me all the parcels next to it were slated for development similar in nature to what exists a few parcels down to the ..... east? I really thought the world trade center had a lot going on around it, and the views from the bridge across to the Seaport Hotel are fantastic. The night life was bustling there, too.
 
czsz said:
I think we're probably working with different definitions. "Packed" means different things to someone living in the city vs. daytripping there from Walpole.
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Ironically enough, I live right next to the Greenway. It's in a little neighborhood called the North End. The North End is packed, so I'm pretty solid on the definition.
 
^ And ipso facto, I think your word carries more weight on this than suburbanites or people from smaller cities, although I think we can still disagree about the word for other reasons.
 
underground said:
Ironically enough, I live right next to the Greenway. It's in a little neighborhood called the North End. The North End is packed, so I'm pretty solid on the definition.
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How do you feel about the evolution of the Greenway these days?
 
czsz said:
^ And ipso facto, I think your word carries more weight on this than suburbanites or people from smaller cities, although I think we can still disagree about the word for other reasons.
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I don't really see such people commenting in this thread. But I do see a number of people who live in Boston, noting a feature of a Boston neighborhood. Feel free to discount the offered opinions all you want, but try to at least know why it is that you're discounting them.
 
czsz said:
I'm 200 miles away right now, but I was last in Boston last week and am around pretty much monthly. When I lived in Cambridge, I'd make it down to the Seaport even less often, but I guess my perspective would have had more legitimacy for you then?
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No. If you lived in Cambridge and said "I rarely get to the Seaport but for everyone who does ... your observations are unimportant and inaccurate." I'd feel the same way.

Next time your in the Seaport take some pictures or make some specific observations about the problems you see with the neighborhood. The fact that you've repeatedly commented on an undersupply of restaurants in the area speaks to the fact that you don't get there very often.
 
Really? Here you have a long stretch of waterfront with essentially one building containing restaurants opening directly on the water (not counting the restaurant in the ICA, which caters more to museumgoers, or the much more cloistered confines of soon-to-go Anthony's Pier 4), and it's surprising to you that this constitutes an "undersupply"? Of course they're "packed".

The Seaport isn't Liberty Wharf, though. Stop pretending otherwise. Away from these restaurants and especially away from the water, you face Death Valley in urbanist terms.

Likewise Fort Point. This is an increasingly popular, atmospheric area with shockingly few commercial establishments period. Demand outstrips supply.
 
czsz said:
The Seaport isn't Liberty Wharf, though. Stop pretending otherwise. Away from these restaurants and especially away from the water, you face Death Valley in urbanist terms.
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I can agree with this part of what you've said. In fact, I already said as much just before you got started on your series of rants.

No doubt, there is a great deal that needs to be done to fill in the vastness. But see Rif's point about the Silver Line. If you are plopped down in the area, rather than walking or driving there, it does feel more the way a city should feel. If the same kind of feeling can develop as the empty parcels fill in, we'll get a pretty good neighborhood, not all that different in my opinion from the Fenway.
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Nobody is saying that the entire seaport is a great urban space, filled with crowds at all times. But if we can get more development that is similar to Liberty Wharf, the area will be quite nice. Liberty Wharf demonstrates what can be done there even with the rather significant elements working against urban form.
 
HenryAlan said:
Liberty Wharf demonstrates what can be done there even with the rather significant elements working against urban form.
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No, Liberty Wharf demonstrates that tidelands regulations — regulations that REQUIRE ground floor activation and REQUIRED occupancy by "facilities of public accommodation" at ground floor (civic, cultural, retail, etc.), are neither active nor a first choice of developers on inland parcels, where the BRA considers corporate lobbies and interior parking as the baseline.

I know, I know, we shouldn't expect every project to be great. Just one out of 10. Or maybe just at the water's edge. The bar for quality urban design, especially in this forum IMHO, is pretty low.
 
czsz said:
Really? Here you have a long stretch of waterfront with essentially one building containing restaurants opening directly on the water (not counting the restaurant in the ICA, which caters more to museumgoers, or the much more cloistered confines of soon-to-go Anthony's Pier 4), and it's surprising to you that this constitutes an "undersupply"? Of course they're "packed".

The Seaport isn't Liberty Wharf, though. Stop pretending otherwise. Away from these restaurants and especially away from the water, you face Death Valley in urbanist terms.
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In addition to Liberty Warf we have Salvatore's, LTK, Morton's, Rosa Mexicanos, Empire, Strega, The Atlantic Beer Garden, Whiskey Priest, Sam's, The Barking Crab and as you mentioned...Anthony's (which I understand is simply moving).

How many more food and drink options do you need?
 
Cliff Clavin said:
In addition to Liberty Warf we have Salvatore's, LTK, Morton's, Rosa Mexicanos, Empire, Strega, The Atlantic Beer Garden, Whiskey Priest, Sam's, The Barking Crab and as you mentioned...Anthony's (which I understand is simply moving).

How many more food and drink options do you need?
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Also the Daily Catch in the courthouse and No Name.

I can understand the complaints, but just as calling it "packed" may be misleading due to its overall underdeveloped state of the area, so are the complaints of the area's "failure" overblown. Last I checked, the area is still being developed, so I'll hold off on bemoaning the street level interaction until there is actually something to interact with. What is there, and the fact that restaurant/club/bar establishments continue to move into the area, gives me hope that it can and will be a fun area to visit.
 
Let's review so we know what we're talking about. I'm not arguing that there are "insufficient dining options" in the Seaport. The argument is that these restaurants are most likely popular now because there aren't many relative to growing numbers of officeworkers, hotel patrons, conventioneers, people who want to be by the waterfront, and people who want to eat somewhere they haven't experienced before in Boston, etc., and that none of this popularity is indicative of the neighborhood constituting a success in urban planning terms.

Needing to wait for a table at an isolated restaurant does not an argument that this is a successful neighborhood make. There are too many other variables to claim causation.
 
The restaurants around Liberty Wharf clearly aren't isolated, but many of the other cited examples are.

Are we really going to nitpick every piece of this argument rather than address is core substance?
 
They are isolated in that they are not where people live. Minus Park Lane, there are very few residences in this area.

The restaurants are destinations. Liberty Wharf is not new anymore (relatively yes, but in restaurant world a year is like dog years.) Drink is about 4 years olf now, and still doing strong business. Papagayo is in it's 2nd summer and is typically PACKED after 5.
Lucky's has been there for years and gets it's clientele, and on weekend nights it is hopping.
The new Strega and now Empire are destination type places, and are close enough for a quick walk over from downtown or better yet a 5 dollar cab ride.
Whiskey Priest and Atlantic Beer Garden, are quite isolated, but yet do very good business, and are typically full (but not packed.)

Fill in the in between parking lots with the 3500 housing units or whatever I keep hearing. These places and twice as many just like them (hopefully some cheaper) will all be packed, and the streets in between will be very busy.
 
czsz said:
Let's review so we know what we're talking about. I'm not arguing that there are "insufficient dining options" in the Seaport. The argument is that these restaurants are most likely popular now because there aren't many relative to growing numbers of officeworkers, hotel patrons, conventioneers, people who want to be by the waterfront, and people who want to eat somewhere they haven't experienced before in Boston, etc., and that none of this popularity is indicative of the neighborhood constituting a success in urban planning terms.
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This is an excellent point and I think quite accurate. But in order to get to this you unnecessarily denigrated others' observations (e.g., "Packed! Ha ha ha! You don't know what packed is!!!"). That was my point.
 
I think there were some crossed wires because people have argued that the Seaport area was packed, the Greenway was packed, and that these restaurants are packed. I think if you're arguing that the Greenway or Seaport in general are packed at any time, we are working with different definitions. With regard to the restaurants, the issue is why they are popular, not whether they are (I haven't dined at the Seaport so I'm not going to dispute what others would know better than me about how full these places are).
 
"The Greenway was packed" = "they should have built a stadium in the seaport" = DRINK!
 
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