The Hub on Causeway (née TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Re: TD Garden Towers

Equilibria said:
That's missing the point. These developers are rich as hell. They can build whatever they want without tax breaks. Riff's right about the fact that once Fan Pier and Millennium Tower got a handout, not one project of note will be built in Boston for a decade until the developer has at least raised a stink about getting one too.

The only way that gets fixed is if Walsh comes in and openly declares that he won't approve any development that gets a break, then backs it up in a few visible cases. Frankly, that's a pretty big risk, since the city takes a net loss if the development is abandoned vs. built with a handout, and Sun Belt cities are happy to take the investments and jobs and throw money in the faces of these developers.

Developers aren't evil people - they want to make as much money as they can. They aren't in business to maximize municipal revenue, but to maximize their own. If a city makes the statement that it will cut tax breaks for major city-altering developments as a reward for building them, any large-scale project will seize the opportunity for free cash, and the city will grow as a result.
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Equilib -- Walsh can be represented by a Big BIG Trade Union Carpenter, Brick Layer, Electrician, Plumber, Iron Worker, Crane Operator, etc. -- standing with his arms folded in back of any meeting in which a developer is presenting and clapping -- the only requirement for a Walsh approval -- BIG UNION CONTRACTS

I'm guessing that under Walsh the approval process will be that the developer promises at the very least to pay UNION WAGES -- then comes the "rubber stamp" of the BRA --- APPROVED -- Mayor of Boston
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

whighlander said:
Equilib -- Walsh can be represented by a Big BIG Trade Union Carpenter, Brick Layer, Electrician, Plumber, Iron Worker, Crane Operator, etc. -- standing with his arms folded in back of any meeting in which a developer is presenting and clapping -- the only requirement for a Walsh approval -- BIG UNION CONTRACTS

I'm guessing that under Walsh the approval process will be that the developer promises at the very least to pay UNION WAGES -- then comes the "rubber stamp" of the BRA --- APPROVED -- Mayor of Boston
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Pretty much what I was going to bring up, at least him being Mr. Organized Labor. Which of course is one of the many factors that inflates the cost of building in Boston to levels that make said Sun Belt cities more attractive to potential developers. I like Walsh enough, but that was the big issue for me with him. Keep forcing developers to overspend by requiring Union Labor, and they of course will keep asking for relief elsewhere.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

Why are tax breaks bad again when ultimately the project getting the breaks will result in more taxes for that City? Is it simply because "if you do it for some, you have to do it for all?" That's not a good enough reason to risk losing a significant development (and thus millions in eventual tax income). If someone can show that these tax breaks don't eventually result in more money to the City then I am willing to listen. Until then, they seem like a good deal to me. If I give someone $2,000 and they give me back $2,000 a year for the next 50 years, how is that not smart business?
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

I agree with the above in theory. The argument most people have is that the developer "doesn't need it" because they have so much money. Then people act like the developer is taking money out of their pockets and that this is on the "taxpayers back" or some garbage. It's tax breaks, meaning they pay less taxes than would be required. The home owner is not paying more taxes because of this, ultimately more business can drive down homeowner taxes like in Cambridge.

Who are you to decide they don't need it, just because they have a net worth of $x? Net worth doesn't mean they have 2.8 billion to spend. That's not liquid. They can't just get that in cash.

Even though these billionaires are paying umpteen times more in taxes than Joe homeowner, Joe homeowner feels he is ultimately getting ripped off by "fat cats". Bottom line is, tax revenue increases in the city, just not by as much as without the breaks.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

Seamus shhhh. A voice of reason is not welcome around these parts
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

I know. It's a bad habit I have.
Some rare form of Tourette's.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

SeamusMcFly said:
I agree with the above in theory. The argument most people have is that the developer "doesn't need it" because they have so much money. Then people act like the developer is taking money out of their pockets and that this is on the "taxpayers back" or some garbage. It's tax breaks, meaning they pay less taxes than would be required. The home owner is not paying more taxes because of this, ultimately more business can drive down homeowner taxes like in Cambridge.

Who are you to decide they don't need it, just because they have a net worth of $x? Net worth doesn't mean they have 2.8 billion to spend. That's not liquid. They can't just get that in cash.

Even though these billionaires are paying umpteen times more in taxes than Joe homeowner, Joe homeowner feels he is ultimately getting ripped off by "fat cats". Bottom line is, tax revenue increases in the city, just not by as much as without the breaks.
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Please go to the next meetings on this project and voice your opinion. There's no good reason to lop off 1/3 of the height here.

On another note, isn't the Nashua Street Residences supposed to be around 420'? What the heck happened to that? Last I heard it was supposed to start this past August.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

I mean, the other thing with tax breaks is that if it isn't built we aren't getting taxes out of the property at all. This way at least something is coming in, and buildings are going up. Its like a store stocking a loss leader, or complimentary drinks at an art show. Get people in the door and then get their money. Is it perfect? No, but we are not loosing anything, we just are not gaining as much.

--As much in taxes, the societal benefits may be greater then the potential tax revenue, but it's harder to put a dollar amount on that, and after all all anyone cares about are dollars, right?
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

davem said:
I mean, the other thing with tax breaks is that if it isn't built we aren't getting taxes out of the property at all. This way at least something is coming in, and buildings are going up. Its like a store stocking a loss leader, or complimentary drinks at an art show. Get people in the door and then get their money. Is it perfect? No, but we are not loosing anything, we just are not gaining as much.

--As much in taxes, the societal benefits may be greater then the potential tax revenue, but it's harder to put a dollar amount on that, and after all all anyone cares about are dollars, right?
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The problem really is if you've convinced people like Jacobs that you're handing out money to anyone who comes with an outstretched hand. If he could build this without your help - and he can - then you've left money on the table, and cities always need more money. It all depends what your reference point is. Is it him not building anything (as he would like it to be) or him paying full freight, which he can afford to to and still make a large profit (as perhaps it should be).

I feel like tax incentives have their place in a situation like Fan Pier, where you're trying to convince the first-in company to move to a place where no one like them has been before. Those initial pioneers need extra incentives to try something new and cooperate with your vision. I don't think, however, that it makes sense to apply them everywhere, to projects which shouldn't need them to proceed.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

I'm taking notes of who is for and against the tax break which is ostensibly to be passed on to the future retail tenants. If this thing opens with a 100,000 square foot Bank of America because they were the only tenant willing to pay full fare, then none of the short-sighted tightwads get to bitch about it.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

^exactly, this is the problem with demanding things (i.e. supermarket). If there were really a way to have a profitable supermarket at the nexus of the northend, don't you think someone would have built one of the last 40 years.

(whole foods is small and expensive, not really catering to the neighborhood demands b/c the demand is still being made).

So in many cases, this is the premium the city pays to get that amenity. Otherwise it will be a collection of banks and sportsbar chains that the neighborhood hates so much.

You can leave it up to the market and have demand be met through higher buildings and less demands, or you can make demands and have to concede some cash along the way.

Note: the fact that JJ is rich is an irrelevant straw man.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

Boston’s Development Process

The politicians have rigged the development game in the city by creating Zoning, Regulations on everything including shadows, height and other bureaucratic bullshit like the NIMBYS which is the nail in the coffin for every city development.
So every development proposed is basically (NO not a good idea) NIMBYS kills every project proposed they don’t like change in this city.
The only person that can push the development through is the MAYOR (AKA BRA authority)
After seeing somebody in office for 20 years every single taxpayer’s handout went pretty much to MENINO gang and that is why this guy has stayed in power for so long.


When you start giving tax breaks to specific groups or individuals that are building the projects…
For Example Fan Pier tax breaks.
They recruited the tenant out of Cambridge.
So in reality the formula works like this.
Net Decrease of -1,000,000 Square Feet out of Cambridge
***Lowers the rents in the area and adds more pressure to the Landlords who bought real estate and expected a certain price point or possibly increasing rents the future but will have to eat the timeline or possible file banrkuptcy now that 1,000,000 sq ft just got wiped out by tax incentives for a relocation.

Net Increase of +1,000,000 Square feet in Seaport District (60 Million in tax breaks which helps a specific developer lower construction costs)
**Developer will try to maximize profit margins on this specific development which will include SHODDY materials possibly cut corners, the planning is rushed because the developer is not building for value its more about a timeline. The customer is locked in with the generous tax-breaks so the developer does not have to persuade the tenant to choose his building - against another and this is why capitalism works.

This is why Boston is lacking in better quality buildings (Better Architecture or ideas)

What is going on in Boston is Criminal. (They are shaving off development costs with tax incentives and investing them in the politicans campaign coffers for future developments)

Concerning Tax revenue for the city. Maybe the city should start to consider cutting back its lavished pension programs on Beacon Hill or revaluting how many city & state employees it actually takes to run the city in a much more efficient manner.

You can't live in a society where oh my friends get all the tax incentives but your group doesn't. Its the taxpayers building wealth for the super rich... Its welfare for the rich-- who never needed it. It also create dynasty career politicans which is very dangerous to our way of life.
There is alot of value near North Station I'm sure if the city put the pressure on Jermery to either build something or sell it to a developer that will. In the end he would build something because it only adds value to his beloved Bruins in the long-term and that is what is best for Jermey Jacobs.
 
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Re: TD Garden Towers

Why would or should the city be able to "put pressure" on a land owner to sell it?
Big government = bad, but big government makes you do with your private property as they please = good?

As far as lavish pensions and redundant government spending.... right there with ya. Of course that's big government being bad again.

Can't have it both ways.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

SeamusMcFly said:
Why would or should the city be able to "put pressure" on a land owner to sell it?
Big government = bad, but big government makes you do with your private property as they please = good?

As far as lavish pensions and redundant government spending.... right there with ya. Of course that's big government being bad again.

Can't have it both ways.
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Mr. Jacobs got that land for free on the basis of Building on it. That is why there should be pressure on him. Overall if the city or state did not give him the land then the city should not put any pressure on him. Let the area become a dump for all I care.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

Doesn't make much sense. If I give you a car (not going to), I can't come back a few months or years later and force you to put only high octane in it. And, if you don't make you sell it to someone else who will.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

^Time to move any more discussion on this to the General thread.

Re: Nashua street, When I walked by the backside of the garden a few months back i swear I saw them have scaffolding up the side a bit. I thought I would see more since that day, but haven't. I haven't walked by in a while to see what its like.

Also, those Basketball city towers seem to be going nowwhere either. I wonder why?
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

I have a feeling that BP is not going to buckle on the height. Asking for the tax break was a brilliant move in order to get people to back off the height issue.

With this 600ft tower, we are going to be 100% like Toronto in every way imaginable. They were once our friends. Now, they are our buddies.
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

A million internets for you both.

I'm not your fwiend buddy!
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

type001 said:
I have a feeling that BP is not going to buckle on the height. Asking for the tax break was a brilliant move in order to get people to back off the height issue.

With this 600ft tower, we are going to be 100% like Toronto in every way imaginable. They were once our friends. Now, they are our buddies.
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Does that mean that the incoming mayor will be videoed smoking Crack and Raging against some political opponent
 
Re: TD Garden Towers

You guys are awesome for jumping on that South Park references, especially given that the episode came out this weekend.

The crack smoking mayor reference is icing on the cake!

I always enjoy reading Menino's trademark passive bullying statement "I know they'll make the right decision. ". Yep, we'll see Mr. Mayor.
 
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