The Orange Line Thread

mass88 said:
If the MBTA wants to buy the 9 hole golf course that surrounds Hersey, there would be plenty of room adjacent to Hersey for a yard. I doubt Needham would go for it though given the nature of the surrounding areas.

Instead of Hersey, why not use what they already have? They park 2 trains overnight right next to the Needham Heights stop as there's extra space and extra track accommodate the trains and they do not even use all of it.

Hersey's lot is always full during the week and they have 2 that are a decent size. You also get a lot of people who walk to the train given the station's location in a pretty dense residential area. Same goes for the Needham Center stop.

It's unlikely that Orange will be brought up to Heights. Unless new studies suggest otherwise, Green makes the most sense to replace the three northern Needham stops. Orange will probably terminate at WestRox (whether the station stays where it is or moves down the block) and use the unutilized track beyond to store a few trains. There may be enough room for an additional three or four pocket tracks on the southern side by the Shaws. There would be room for a small yard at Needham Junction. The T could buy that truck storage lot and use that and also tail tracks to the Southwest if necessary to have room for both Green and Orange trains.
 
If it's orange to W. Roxbury and Green to Needham, I think the green line should end at Hersey not Needham Junction. Hersey is smack in the middle of a huge residential area, and the goal of transit after all should be to reduce car trips. I could even see that golf course redeveloped into a little TOD village. If/when the orange line is extended across the marsh, the conversation could be had whether to end it at 128 or Needham Junction, flipping Hersey to an OL stop.

Yard space could be on the abandoned tracks heading towards Dover as well. It has the added bonus of being on a wye. You can't use all of the existing MBTA layover yard at Needham Heights as one of those storage tracks is actually an ex-mainline track that would need to be reclaimed. However, the outer track (I'm guessing an old freight siding) looks like it could hold ~18 trolleys, which is probably more than enough for start of service.


One thing I never really thought about regarding extending the GL to Needham is the split. It's not a wye, nor does there look like there is any room to build one or add a third track under route 9. So any trains going Riverside to/from Needham would have to foul the main while reversing direction, or go all the way to Reservoir to turn around. I don't know if that's a big deal or not, but it does seem to indicate you'd want a decent sized layover yard, perhaps with an inspection pit.

I assume that a Needham GLX would need its own substantial yard space down around NJ (not as big as Riverside, perhaps but large enough to make the line independent of Riverside).

I think that if the Needham Line is deactivated as Commuter Rail in favor of Green/Orange, the Hersey community will be without service for quite some time. Unless they're very organized and vocal, the T won't cross the Marsh for one stop with mediocre ridership in a first phase (is the golf course in dire straights that we can presume its redevelopment into ToD residential?). A 128 stop might not be wanted by the T there either if there's two to three other highway stops service 128 in Westwood, Waltham and potentially Needham Highlands. Ultimately, I think that the MBTA would go for a 128 stop before a Hersey terminus unless some sort of big ToD project takes over the golf course.
 
Green's got all the yard space it would ever need circling the wye. You'd probably see the Needham Jct. platforms moving across the street behind Roche Bros. in a conversion scenario.

There's not a whole lot near Hersey. It's there because it's close to the 128 exit, so when it was rebuilt in 1987 they added that sorta good-sized parking lot. Before the lot was there it was this little bare-slab speck of a platform called "Bird's Hill" akin to the Weston stops on the Fitchburg Line. In a rapid transit scenario all of the 128 traffic and then some migrates to Highland Ave. and that GL station. Neighborhood around Hersey is low-density, sleepy, and not likely to be regular transit users outside of peak commute hours. Meaning the trains run empty...really, really, really empty...east of Junction on that loop-around for three-quarters of the service day and the entire weekend.

Extend the rail trail east across 128 to Cutler Park and let those folks have a nice grade-separated walk/bike to Junction, and re-route the 59 bus down Dedham and Harris Ave.'s so it doesn't double-up so much of the rail line and they'll be happy.



I don't think Orange has got any ridership west of W. Roxbury because there's no there there at 128. Not real close to the Great Plain Ave. exit unless it's placed at Hersey...which is too close to Junction. Absolute zero commercial property down there because it's all residential and wetlands, absolute zero TOD potential. Zero bus connections. Needham-Newton travel orientation is north-south; the east-west is strictly 7-9am/4-7pm in-and-out demand not replicated at any other service hours. 128 drivers will opt for Highland Ave. GL over Great Plain/Orange because it's right off the highway and there's more to do (don't assume the straightest-line trip trumps all when sometimes you just want a bite to eat or a nearby store to run a quick errand when leaving the park-and-ride lot).

If replacing the Needham Line, OL Forest Hills-W. Rox is ironclad and GL Newton Highlands-Needham Jct. is ironclad. I would not include the midsection in the base build. Wait and see if the demand percolates after W. Rox opens, and if so it won't cost much to tack on a +1 leg to 128. Almost 40% of the route mileage due west of Forest Hills to 128 is on the W. Rox to 128 stretch, so that's a significant chunk of change for only 1 stop of uncertain utilization. Going all-out from the get-go there with a massive parking garage that's dead quiet 15 hours a day with trains dead empty is not an overreach they want to be basing the whole project on. Fundamentally this is a neighborhood project for W. Rox and Rozzie, a neighborhood project for the Highland Ave. corridor with a big TOD cherry on top at TV Place/128, and expunging the runt of the NEC's litter to a more appropriate mode before the Amtrak, Providence, and South Coast train traffic gets too hairy to juggle it all. It's not driven by need for more parking sinks on this stretch of 128. Westwood, Dedham Corporate, Riverside, and that would-be TOD cherry at Highland/TV Place serve up an overabundance of that. Rather see those resources applied to a Fitchburg Line/Route 20 parking sink, Reading Line/Quannapowitt Pkwy. parking sink, and Peabody/North Shore Mall parking sink--all at DMU frequencies--on badly transit-deprived north half of 128 before we blow that wad on a 5th park-and-ride (and 3rd with rapid transit frequencies) on just the southwest quadrant alone. That's the least congested stretch of the road post-widening.

The demand might absolutely be there. I just think a little caution is warranted and some real-world demand needs to manifest itself west of W. Roxbury before doing that leg. It wouldn't be smart to delay the project years later over speculative haggling re: what ridership is on the other side of Cutler Park when that puts the Orange Line further off the guaranteed slam-dunk ridership West Roxbury-inbound and Needham Jct.-Newton northbound.
 
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I guess that makes the most sense - to extend the OL through WR and the GL to NJ... Hershey is certainly the sleepiest stop. But it would be super cool (I suppose more for my own satisfaction than a justifiable, logistical reason) to have the OL and GL connect out in the hinterlands. But I agree, not worth hanging any hat on. It really kills me that the GL hasnt been extended through Needham, and I worry that the rail trail, soon to be, will preclude it in the future. I have no doubt that a GLX would be very, very popular out there. Ditto for OL at least as far as WR. Also, since WR and Roz remain fairly affordable but still entrenched in old school Boston neighborhood politics, an OL extension would probably help along a cultural shift toward more young, pro-city, pro-openness, etc...
 
Roslindale's demographics have already shifted - there's definitely political will there NOW for an orange line stop. West Roxbury is a different story, though.

I think once the substation project finally gets underway, people in the neighborhood will shift their focus to extending the orange line.
 
I have been doing some numbers for a possible OLX.

What I have done is measure the length of the bus lines that share the Forest Hills - Roslindale Village part (30, 34, 34E, 35, 36, 37, 40, 50, 51. Google maps, not very accurate but I don't think it matters). Then I have recalculated their length assuming an extension to RV.

The results? Savings of 22% (27% if we exclude the 34E that being so long dominates the data).

Almost 1/4th!!! I never imagined the numbers were so big. That is a lot of wasted money/time/...

Seeing those numbers I did the same procedure but now extending the OLX to West Roxbury. The savings now are 42% (52% if 34E is removed). That is linking each line with the best available stop (30 - RV, 51 - Bellevue and the rest to WRox). 52%!!! That is massive!. Also it leaves 4 lines with under 3 miles (30, 35, 40 and 50) and 3 under 2 miles (34, 36, 37), so some restructuring could stretch the savings even further.

I'm really surprised that the MBTA is not doing the OLX as a way of saving money ;-)

Anybody has a rough idea of the relative cost of running a bus ($/mile) with respect to a T line (not underground)?
 
The next step is to calculate the weighted numbers. It is not the same saving 35% in the 34 than the same number in the 50. How frequent it is has a massive importance.
 
I'm really surprised that the MBTA is not doing the OLX as a way of saving money ;-)

Heh. I lost track of the number of ways the MBTA could save money and improve operations at the same time.

Anybody has a rough idea of the relative cost of running a bus ($/mile) with respect to a T line (not underground)?

http://www.ntdprogram.gov/ntdprogram/pubs/profiles/2002/agency_profiles/1003.pdf

You can look at cost per revenue hour. But keep in mind that it is just the "marginal" value, and does not include the expenses incurred by a large expansion of service (new yards, new vehicles, additional maintenance of way, etc). It's more like asking "what would just one more hour of service cost, assuming all else remains the same?"

The next step is to calculate the weighted numbers. It is not the same saving 35% in the 34 than the same number in the 50. How frequent it is has a massive importance.

What you want to do is calculate the number of revenue hours: for every bus, you look at how long it is in operation serving a route. You also have to pay drivers to do other tasks (like moving the bus in and out of service) but for a quick estimate you can leave that aside.
 
OK, done!

With OLX ending in RV the savings go (in %):

22 (raw) ---> 27 (weighted) ---> 29 (weighted. No 34E)

Ending in WRox:

42 ---> 49 ---> 53

Basically the same. The fact that 34 runs much more often that the other lines (9 min @ around 8am) and that the savings in that route are above average makes the weighted average even better.

Again, these numbers are mind-blowing, at least for me!
 
Now think of how much similar line expansions could save with an extended Blue, GLX to both Porter and Rt. 16, etc. If we could only get past the initial cost (which admittedly isn't cheap), there is a huge potential in efficiency savings within our system.
 
http://www.ntdprogram.gov/ntdprogram/pubs/profiles/2002/agency_profiles/1003.pdf

You can look at cost per revenue hour. But keep in mind that it is just the "marginal" value, and does not include the expenses incurred by a large expansion of service (new yards, new vehicles, additional maintenance of way, etc). It's more like asking "what would just one more hour of service cost, assuming all else remains the same?"

Thanks for the link. It is awesome. If I manage to get my head around the numbers I'll show the new results.
 
Please don't forget that Forest Hills is still an important bus hub, and the busway is getting a thorough renovation along with the Casey Arborway project. Buses serve a different, although overlapping, market from rapid transit. There is still plenty of need for frequent service on Washington Street.
 
Please don't forget that Forest Hills is still an important bus hub, and the busway is getting a thorough renovation along with the Casey Arborway project. Buses serve a different, although overlapping, market from rapid transit. There is still plenty of need for frequent service on Washington Street.

I think we have made that perfectly clear in previous pages (maybe even in this one). There is a need for Buses along Washington Street. Different people have suggested different solutions, but there is certainly NO need for 27 (approx.) buses per hour as it is the case now. There are 9 lines now that share the RV to FH route. Most of the need comes beyond RV. I don't know how to do it (new to transportation discussions, learning every day), but it is very clear to me how inefficient it is (I'm not even considering the effects on traffic of having 9 routes there, that may or may not be able to move to the curb to stop and get passengers, stopping all traffic with them)
 
Well the big advantage of the buses is that they can fan out and serve a much wider area than the OLX. Even a branch of the OL wouldn't cover the same ground, and that's much less likely than the OLX to ever be built.

I fully agree that OLX is a worthy project but let's not get too excited about chopping off bus routes. It might be interesting to see your analysis, but I don't expect the OL to replace all that many buses. Bus routes are surprisingly resilient animals in this city. So many of them are the same as the trolleys of a century ago, and modifications are minimal and hard fought.
 
Well the big advantage of the buses is that they can fan out and serve a much wider area than the OLX.

But that is clearly not true for the FH - RV strip. Those 27 buses per hour don't cover any extra area. Once that you go beyond RV the bus routes open like a fan and behave as what they are: buses. Serving a big area with lower ridership.

Bus routes are surprisingly resilient animals in this city. So many of them are the same as the trolleys of a century ago, and modifications are minimal and hard fought.

The more I know about this city the more I have to agree with you on this one. Good for us that this a minimal one. ;-)
 
Just to give a sense what this extension would do at reshaping the bus loads at FH, the last PMT (2003) that included the W. Rox OLX in its universe of projects projected +11,300 daily Orange Line riders as a result of the new stops, but only +600 new transit riders using no current form of transit.

That proposal did spec going all the way to Route 128, so that +600 is majority from the 128/Hersey park-and-ride. And that's a very shitty bump for a line with a 128 park-and-ride, which is why I think the cost of building any further than W. Rox (especially when W. Rox-Hersey is 40% of the extension's total length) is a complete waste unless some later Phase II slam-dunk shows its there.

But this illustrates how much the buses are transformed. If 1400 daily Needham Line riders at those intra-city stops (per the '14 Blue Book) migrate to OLX, that's 10,000 diversions per day from that nine-route Washington St. concurrency between FH and Rozzie.

Here's the daily weekday boardings from the routes on the FH-Rozzie concurrency (IB+OB), plus their ridership rank out of 169 total MBTA bus routes.

#30 - 2496 (rank: 54)
#34 + 34E - 4030 (rank: 33)
#35 - 2422 (rank: 56)
#36 - 3323 (rank: 43)
#37 - 1593 (rank: 84)
#40 - 1344 (rank: 96)
#50 - 1310 (rank: 99)
#51 - 2145 (rank: 63)
TOTAL: 18,663

This route down Centre St. from FH to Bellevue is also relevant for the discussion:
#38 - 1021 (rank: 113)


Now, the diversions are not going to be 18,663 minus 10,000 because there will still be OL-to-bus transfers at the outer stops and not everybody is getting on or off at FH. You'd have to dig into the per-stop boardings and do some painfully boring math to figure that one out. The 35, 36, and 37 are the three routes that hit every OLX station and do not diverge until West Roxbury (39% of total ridership); those would have the most diversions to rail. Each only runs relatively short distance past W. Rox after they diverge, so the % of riders on those routes riding for the last few stops regardless of OLX isn't large. Again, maths and blah blah blah. Still, at pretty conservative estimates of how much diversion you're talking...it's a shitload of bus trips saved.

Maybe a quarter of the load off the Washington concurrency if you're playing it very conservative, which is still enough to do some consolidation.



So...with that in mind:

#37 - Least amount of diversion from OLX, lowest ridership of the 3 routes that duplicate the whole length of OLX. Loops around north of W. Rox station within 1/3 mile walking distance to the station. The 52 duplicates part of this route and swings close enough to your probable W. Rox OLX terminal behind Shaw's that the 52 would probably be drawn in to loop at the transfer. Whack the 37...you're covered. ELIMINATED.

#38 - Lowest ridership of all routes. Hits Bellevue then fizzes out on some side streets to the south after zigzagging around. All of the past-Bellevue stops are less than 1/2 mile walking to either Highland or Bellevue. I think you can whack the south portion entirely, then reassign one of the 35/36/37 to the Centre St. routing to cover the 38's former bread-and-butter. Probably at better frequencies than the 38 ever managed. ELIMINATED.

#35 - Longest route, middle-of-road ridership. It stays almost entirely on Centre St. from W. Rox. This is the ideal one to re-route on the 38's old Centre St. routing, to make it essentially "the Centre St. bus". Logical. PARTIAL RELOCATION, SAME TERMINI.

#51 - Very long route to Reservoir. Would probably work better and attract more ridership if shortened. TRUNCATE.

#30 - Diverges to Mattapan from Rozzie down Cummins Hwy. Short route, will hit Blue Hill Ave. Fairmount station in future in addition to FH, Rozzie/OLX, and Mattapan. Keep it as-is out of FH and upgrade this sucker because it's a hugely valuable transfer circulator. KEEP AS-IS.

#34/34E - Stays arrow straight down Washington. It's a Washington load-bearing bus and a faster trip to Dedham Mall than the 35. KEEP AS-IS.

#36 - Relatively short travel distance between W. Rox and the VA Hospital, highest ridership. Chances are this is going to have elevated numbers of handicapped passengers who need closer-spaced stops, and it needs to go through the gut of the neighborhood. Keep it as-is. Maybe increase the frequencies to offset some other losses. KEEP AS-IS.

#40 - Goes considerable distance down Washington before looping around at the south side of the cemetery. Lowish ridership, most of it probably on the Washington concurrency to Rozzie then Washington currency with the 34/34E. The 33 out of Mattapan, which has considerably higher ridership (rank: 34) meets it on the other side of the cemetery. Would have to study the numbers at the unique stops and determine whether the 33 covers the it well enough. I lean to yes because the 40 ridership is very low while the 33's very high, suggesting a demand skew to Hyde Park and Mattapan instead of Rozzie/FH. Some light reshaping of other routes might be the solution. TBD (merge routes?).

#50 - FH to Cleary Sq. Probably extended to loop at Fairmount sometime soon. The 32 is the most direct route from FH to Cleary, and is #8 rank which basically makes it a Key Bus Route. Doesn't suggest a lot of natural Rozzie-Cleary demand, and have to assume that at least some people at FH are grabbing a 50 in between 32's because it says Cleary/Hyde Park. Flanks the other side of the cemetery from the 40. That's three routes at the cemetery when the 33 is thrown in. Maybe the solution here is to combine the 40 and 50 into a loop-around and boost frequencies. If the jagged route takes too much time, terminate at Rozzie...but you'd probably support better frequencies keeping it running limited-stop on the FH-Rozzie concurrency. TBD (merge routes).


OK...so that's 3 routes on the FH-Rozzie concurrency, down from 9. One is a combined route with upped frequencies, presumably to get the formerly two separate routes out of the ridership gutter. One is a supersize mini-Ring route that should get very enhanced service. And one is the local-stop double-up of OLX. The routes that fizz out in league-average walking distance to rapid transit get eliminated. One re-route serves the highest-demand portion of one of the eliminateds and likely becomes a growth route sticking to one corridor with unique travel patterns instead of splitting the difference. One route gets a beneficial truncation that'll make its schedule more reasonable and encourage more ridership as a result. A non-FH route gets roped into a nearby OLX transfer and supplants all the unique needs of one of the eliminateds.

That's pretty well-balanced, no? You eliminated a lot of schedules on the concurrency but kept the strongest ones and strengthened some through reshaping that probably needed troubleshooting to begin with. So it's -6 routes. but say you retain two-thirds of the frequencies because the drops were generally weaklings that clogged more traffic than they brought in riders to FH.

I think that's entirely reasonable, splitting-hairs differences of opinion aside. It's a bit more dramatic change to the route lines on the detail system map, but not a drastic change in what goes where how often for the highest % of the route's riders when everything's weighted.
 
But that is clearly not true for the FH - RV strip. Those 27 buses per hour don't cover any extra area. Once that you go beyond RV the bus routes open like a fan and behave as what they are: buses. Serving a big area with lower ridership.


plus - 27 diesel-burning buses an hour is an environmental issue for that short stretch of Washington street - not to mention a safety hazard for cyclists (and that stretch sees at least a few hundred a day).

plus the service isn't spread out every couple minutes - buses usually come bunched up - a couple weeks ago I saw 6 buses all in a row, all different lines.

ride any bus from Forest Hills down Washington - and I'd say about half the riders get off starting at south street and then just past the square - with a handful getting off around archdale.
 
When on bloody earth will the elcheapo MBTA reveal their final designs for the new Red & Orange Line rail cars, and who will it choose to design & build them?!

What in the world are they waiting for?! it needs to stop dragging its feet and just get on with it! :mad:
 
When on bloody earth will the elcheapo MBTA reveal their final designs for the new Red & orange Line rail cars, and who will it choose to design & build them?!

What in the world are they waiting for?! it needs to stop dragging its feet and just get on with it!! :mad:

It'll be years, dude. First they have to select the bidder, who then works with the MBTA to build design specs for the cars. If they're planning 2019 delivery, you won't see a rendering of them until 2016 or so.

For comparison, these are scheduled for delivery after the Green Line Type 9s, and they have a builder for those, and there still isn't a real rendering yet - the one CAF provided was a weird non-existent T livery photoshopped onto an old picture of one of their LRTs.
 
It'll be years, dude. First they have to select the bidder, who then works with the MBTA to build design specs for the cars. If they're planning 2019 delivery, you won't see a rendering of them until 2016 or so.

For comparison, these are scheduled for delivery after the Green Line Type 9s, and they have a builder for those, and there still isn't a real rendering yet - the one CAF provided was a weird non-existent T livery photoshopped onto an old picture of one of their LRTs.



When you look at it, 5 years isn't really that far off. They are also planning & hoping for a 2019 delivery of the first of about 24 Type 9 trolleys for the Green Line.

I realize also, that they are supposed to be working with whatever bidder they choose, to build a manufacturing plant somewhere out in or near Springfield. They still have yet to do that as well. :eek:
 

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