The Orange Line Thread

[Schorschico]

The "Access to the Bus" and "Egress from the Bus" tables for each route tell you how many transfer to/from other bus routes. Using Route 36 as an example, on PDF page 131, shows 81 people transferring from Route 36 to Route 39 and 20 people transferring from Route 36 to Route 16

Thank you for the tip, I didn't know where to get the data!

The results are very much as expected. Basically, an OLX to RV will be great for lines 30,34,34E,35,36,37,40,40 and 51 with shorter routes and faster connections with the OL (the main use of all of them). Of the possible loss of bus-bus connections, only 39 sees some transfers (makes sense) and in a much smaller range 16.

So I would propose to make them all shorter and increase the length of 39, 16 and 42 until RV to minimize the impact on bus-bus transfer and keep bus service on Washington street.

32 will remain "as is" waiting for an OLX2, and the other routes affected, 21 & 31 could remain the same as OL "feeders".

 

[rinserepeat]

The "Access to the Bus" and "Egress from the Bus" tables for each route tell you how many transfer to/from other bus routes. Using Route 36 as an example, on PDF page 131, shows 81 people transferring from Route 36 to Route 39 and 20 people transferring from Route 36 to Route 16

ah - oops...

egress for lines that run through rozzie square:

#14 bus - seems like most people ride this to dudley - a roslindale stop might pick up some riders from this line, though.

#30 - 51% to orange line (570) (or maybe mattapan?)- 10% bus transfers - 2 of the main ones are in rozzie square, only one is at forest hills.

#34 - 30% to orange line (920), 8% bus transfer, most at forest hills

#35 - 17% to orange line (121), 14% bus transfer, most at forest hills

#36 - 35% to orange line (685), 5% bus transfer, all at forest hills

#37 - 53% to orange line (625), 2% bus transfer, all at roslindale

#40 - 38% to orange line (314), 3% bus transfer all to 39 at forest hills

#50 - 47% to orange line (319), 10% bus transfer all at forest hills

#51 - 51% to either green or orange line - I'm assuming mostly green, 5% bus transfer (of which only a small handful of people at forest hills)


so... around 3500 existing daily orange line users on lines that run through roslindale square - they'll probably capture some commuter rail people and maybe a few hundred more new riders... so it's still somewhere in the middle in terms of potential ridership.


just FYI - total projected ridership on the south coast rail project is around 4000 daily riders or so - if that's enough to justify a couple billion dollar project, why not one stop in roslindale?

 

[rinserepeat]

Thank you for the tip, I didn't know where to get the data!

The results are very much as expected. Basically, an OLX to RV will be great for lines 30,34,34E,35,36,37,40,40 and 51 with shorter routes and faster connections with the OL (the main use of all of them). Of the possible loss of bus-bus connections, only 39 sees some transfers (makes sense) and in a much smaller range 16.

So I would propose to make them all shorter and increase the length of 39, 16 and 42 until RV to minimize the impact on bus-bus transfer and keep bus service on Washington street.

32 will remain "as is" waiting for an OLX2, and the other routes affected, 21 & 31 could remain the same as OL "feeders".

except - where do you put all the idling buses? this might be a problem for the neighborhood...

 

[omaja]

except - where do you put all the idling buses? this might be a problem for the neighborhood...

Easy enough: turn the CR parking lot off of Belgrade into the busway and redevelop the other parking lot into a parking garage as necessary. We'd be talking about losing less than 50 spots.

 

[Matthew]

Easy enough: turn the CR parking lot off of Belgrade into the busway and redevelop the other parking lot into a parking garage as necessary. We'd be talking about losing less than 50 spots.

Every space is sacred, every space is great. If a space gets wasted, T gets quite irate.

 

[omaja]

I know you're kidding, but I'd really like to see them try to make that argument. The lot has, on average, 79% availability... so the 90+ spots in the back lot can handle the current demand 3x over.

 

[rinserepeat]

Easy enough: turn the CR parking lot off of Belgrade into the busway and redevelop the other parking lot into a parking garage as necessary. We'd be talking about losing less than 50 spots.

ah! the lower parking lot would totally work as a busway! those lots are rarely used anyway except as parking for the farmer's market (it's in the study tufts did for the neighborhood a few years ago). they could still keep the CR station - just flip it and have the platform over the busway, and the orange line station would end taking a little space on the upper parking lot... they could still have some parking up there.

I was just thinking about extending the 39 - suddenly you have this direct connection to centre street in JP and ultimately longwood from rozzie - and bringing down the 16 and 42, there would no longer be what is essentially a "barrier through transit" between roslindale and the rest of the city.

plus - with all the development potentially happening around forest hills, they could stand to get a little relief in terms traffic around the station.

 

[Randomgear]

Part of the reason that the Rozzie MBTA parking lots are underutilized is that the municipal lot, kitty corner to the lower parking lot, is free- why pay for a service you can get for free.
I also think that parking on Cummins Ave is free. The on-street parking in Rozzie square is free, but it has a two hour limit.

A dream for me: buses on the Emerald Necklace. Since buses aren't allowed on the Arborway, the Jamaicaway, and the Riverway the only people who get to experience it are car drivers, cyclists, and those who live within walking distance. But, then again, maybe it was meant to keep the poor riffraff out.
Express bus service could be run between Forest Hills, Longwood, Landmark Center, and perhaps even Kenmore Square if only buses could run over Olmstead's beloved Emerald Necklace.

 

[Matthew]

What's to experience? Olmsted's parkways have been turned into high speed traffic sewers. The occasional time I find myself on one of them, I don't find it enjoyable at all.

 

[omaja]

Part of the reason that the Rozzie MBTA parking lots are underutilized is that the municipal lot, kitty corner to the lower parking lot, is free- why pay for a service you can get for free.
I also think that parking on Cummins Ave is free. The on-street parking in Rozzie square is free, but it has a two hour limit.

That is all true, but you missed the most obvious: the value proposition of spending $173/month for a Zone 1 CR pass + $4/day parking just isn't there. Why spend all that money when there's the much cheaper (and usually just as timely) combination of local buses and Orange Line service from Forest Hills? I see people park along Washington past the Square (no time/resident restrictions) and catch the 34/34E/40/50 to FH all the time.

All the more reason to get rid of it and extend the OL!

How much do we think such an extension would cost, anyway? They already have the tail tracks extending quite a ways past FH station, so it seems like we're just looking at two miles or so of new rails, and the infrastructure/station construction at Roslindale Village.

 

[The EGE]

You'll have to widen the trackbed - I don't think it could currently handle three tracks. The South Street bridge doesn't look wide enough for three tracks, so you'd have to built a new bridge there. Shoehorning the Orange Line station in at Roslindale, while preserving the CR track and provision for future extension to West Roxbury, would be difficult though certain doable.

 

[davem]

You'll have to widen the trackbed - I don't think it could currently handle three tracks. The South Street bridge doesn't look wide enough for three tracks, so you'd have to built a new bridge there. Shoehorning the Orange Line station in at Roslindale, while preserving the CR track and provision for future extension to West Roxbury, would be difficult though certain doable.

The South street bridge is three tracks wide.
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=42.293694,-71.122781&spn=0.000902,0.001206&t=h&z=20
http://www.wardmaps.com/viewasset.php?aid=1300


The ROW is pretty wide all the way to Roslindale as well, and it looks like the Robert St bridge was built with three track abutments:
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=42.287064,-71.131655&spn=0.000902,0.001206&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=42.286998,-71.131531&panoid=PXkvYcVebOB2-EMFQLnPIQ&cbp=12,21.3,,0,3.29

 

[George_Apley]

I'm pretty certain that the ROW is wide enough for three tracks up to Roslindale Village. It's after that where it narrows, which is why the OL can't be brought past RV without terminating the Needham Line.

 

[rinserepeat]

posted this in the casey overpass thread - it's probably pure speculation from the neighborhood association - is the T getting rid of the arborway yard?

where would they move it to? Yancy is in opposition to the american legion site- but that might actually work better with Schorschico's idea about changing some bus routes...

 

[HenryAlan]

Would all the busses continue running to FH? Surely some of them would, while others terminated at Rozzie.

I assume one Washington St. bus (probably 34) and one Belgrade Ave. bus, along with perhaps the 30, and the rest could terminate at Rozzy Square.

 

[Arlington]

Woohoo! Assembly appears on schedule for a August station-opening date! Here's an update from the MBTA Assembly Square project Page

As of July 1, 2014, the Assembly Station Project has completed the new southbound track, which is now in service.
The rebuilt northbound track is scheduled to go into service on July 21, 2014.
Assembly Station is targeting an August 2014 opening date and substantial completion is anticipated in November 2014
...
• Slower train speed between Wellington and Sullivan Square
• Suspended subway service beginning at approximately 9 p.m. Sunday through Thursday from July 6, 2014, through August 28, 2014.
• Weekend diversions scheduled for July 19-20 and August 9-10

 

[FK4]

I'm pretty certain that the ROW is wide enough for three tracks up to Roslindale Village. It's after that where it narrows, which is why the OL can't be brought past RV without terminating the Needham Line.

That would be fine by me, just being the orange line to needham. The only problem is needham would probably be better served by a green line branch. Orange line might be overkill and couldn't go through needham without serious construction. Maybe an ideal change would be to bring orange and green to Hershey and put a yard there.

(Edit) since w Rox definitely should be served by orange.

 

[George_Apley]

That would be fine by me, just being the orange line to needham. The only problem is needham would probably be better served by a green line branch. Orange line might be overkill and couldn't go through needham without serious construction. Maybe an ideal change would be to bring orange and green to Hershey and put a yard there.

(Edit) since w Rox definitely should be served by orange.

After Roz is done, a commitment needs to be made for either all Orange or Green/Orange to replace the Needham Line. Green/Orange makes the most sense based on past ridership studies and the Needham/Newton ridership. If Green/Orange is chosen, Orange would probably only be extended to WRox initially, with Green running down to Needham Junction. Hersey could be shuttered without too much griping. It's not a huge ridership station. If after all that demand exists to get people from Needham to Boston through WRox/Roz as well as through Newton/Brookline then studies could be done to determine where to put a yard/Park&Ride and whether to terminate at Hersey or meet Green at NeedhamJunc. There's no room at Hersey to put a yard, and while there's some land West of 128 for a yard/park and ride, there's no good access points to it from the highway short of shoving a lot of rush hour traffic onto Greendale Ave.

 

[mass88]

If the MBTA wants to buy the 9 hole golf course that surrounds Hersey, there would be plenty of room adjacent to Hersey for a yard. I doubt Needham would go for it though given the nature of the surrounding areas.

Instead of Hersey, why not use what they already have? They park 2 trains overnight right next to the Needham Heights stop as there's extra space and extra track accommodate the trains and they do not even use all of it.

Hersey's lot is always full during the week and they have 2 that are a decent size. You also get a lot of people who walk to the train given the station's location in a pretty dense residential area. Same goes for the Needham Center stop.

 

[davem]

If the MBTA wants to buy the 9 hole golf course that surrounds Hersey, there would be plenty of room adjacent to Hersey for a yard. I doubt Needham would go for it though given the nature of the surrounding areas.

Instead of Hersey, why not use what they already have? They park 2 trains overnight right next to the Needham Heights stop as there's extra space and extra track accommodate the trains and they do not even use all of it.

Hersey's lot is always full during the week and they have 2 that are a decent size. You also get a lot of people who walk to the train given the station's location in a pretty dense residential area. Same goes for the Needham Center stop.

If it's orange to W. Roxbury and Green to Needham, I think the green line should end at Hersey not Needham Junction. Hersey is smack in the middle of a huge residential area, and the goal of transit after all should be to reduce car trips. I could even see that golf course redeveloped into a little TOD village. If/when the orange line is extended across the marsh, the conversation could be had whether to end it at 128 or Needham Junction, flipping Hersey to an OL stop.

Yard space could be on the abandoned tracks heading towards Dover as well. It has the added bonus of being on a wye. You can't use all of the existing MBTA layover yard at Needham Heights as one of those storage tracks is actually an ex-mainline track that would need to be reclaimed. However, the outer track (I'm guessing an old freight siding) looks like it could hold ~18 trolleys, which is probably more than enough for start of service.


One thing I never really thought about regarding extending the GL to Needham is the split. It's not a wye, nor does there look like there is any room to build one or add a third track under route 9. So any trains going Riverside to/from Needham would have to foul the main while reversing direction, or go all the way to Reservoir to turn around. I don't know if that's a big deal or not, but it does seem to indicate you'd want a decent sized layover yard, perhaps with an inspection pit.