The Orange Line Thread

wicked said:
Thanks for the correction, winston.

I know the timing is off regarding funding, but I don't understand the point of a 24-car order only. I know they need the new cars, but still. I'd imagine the cost to maintain that small of a lot will be much higher than average.
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It is indeed the timing. Full GLX is targeted for 2019, new Red and Orange cars have to be a priority over a large Green Line order, and that means mid-20s for the new Green Line fleet. If the Type 9s turn out to be good cars, they can certainly be sure the big order (Type 10 or maybe Type 9A) is specked out to be compatible. There will be no guarantee that the same builder would get both contracts though. It is unfortunate that the Type 9 Request for Proposals only had options for 30 more cars instead of 220 more cars, but at the time the Type 9 order was conceived, the target was GLX opening in 2015 and 10 years would have been too long to extend an option to include cars required in the mid-20s.
 
wicked said:
Thanks for the correction, winston.

I know the timing is off regarding funding, but I don't understand the point of a 24-car order only. I know they need the new cars, but still. I'd imagine the cost to maintain that small of a lot will be much higher than average.
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Yeah, but if you're going to order a new model and it turns out to be Breda 2: Electric Boogaloo, would you rather be on the hook for 24 on the base order with ability to back away slowly. Or 100 and have to threaten to bail on the tail end of the contract because the crap product isn't improving fast enough with further deliveries?

The structure of 24 Type 9's on the base order + 30 Type 9 options + 166 Type __ at a future date sort of resembles the new Amtrak diesel locomotive order from Siemens. Small and going to the state-sponsored routes first, expandable to a fleet-wide replacement. And if they are leaning towards a next-gen vehicle platform--and it ends up a good vehicle--the ensuing order is quite likely to be a refresh order instead of an all-new thing. Sort of like the 3700 series Type 7's that came 11 years after the first order, only these would presumably trail by only a few years.


Ideally a successful vehicle would stay with the same manufacturer (*cough*...Kinki...*cough*), but they could do open bidding on the second order with requirement that they be near-lookalike/workalikes off the same template. Sort of like the control they exert over bus standardization. As long as they don't get totally carried away letting a manufacturer that doesn't know what it's doing design something totally loopy like Breda did there's not a whole big aura of mystery to what's inside a modern trolley. The big, experienced manufacturers stick to the same meat-and-potatoes and could bid on a vendor-neutral MBTA template design if the design is well-done.
 
Or better yet they could fix the blockages like Boylston that prevent us from using "off the shelf" vehicles and pay for it with the vehicle savings realized over the T custom jobs..
 
Jahvon09 said:
It was on the news last week. I just read about that myself also.

The oldest ones now ARE the Type 7's, after the the agency has gotten rid of all al the Type 6's, the Boeing Vertol LRV'S, which were the first ones ever for the MBTA.

They were the ones that had proved to be particularly troublesome & problematic. The Type 7's were the least troublesome and the T became very fond of them after they were in service for the first few months.
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FYI, the only Type 6 was a half built mockup, the PCCs and SLRVs were not part of the "type" numbering scheme, due to those being cars exclusively designed for Boston, wheras both the PCC and SLRV were national streetcar programs.

As for the Type 7s reliability, its no coincidence it shares much of the same "guts" as the still-in-service-after-50-years PCCs, wheras the Type 8, much like the similarity troublesome SLRVS were ground-up designs, which almost always fails.
 
Semass said:
Thanks Winston. Interesting but extremely frustrating. With new transit systems going in nationwide using reliable and standard technology, it is discouraging to see what we have to do here. Yes. I know, all of the new build is just that and doesn't have our legacy system to deal with.
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I think I said in another thread that pre-WWI trolley subways (or tram metros) are pretty rare in the entire world, not just the U.S., so the Green Line really is very unique for the clearance issues. They can use otherwise standardized propulsion systems.

Just think though, if the Type 8 order had gone to Kinki-Sharyo instead of Breda back in 1996, we probably wouldn't be that concerned about unique specifications as we are now. The Type 8 was the first order for a low-floor car design in North America at the time (although Portland's order from Siemens were the first actually put in service) and the Type 8 was also an early use of A.C. propulsion equipment in a North American light-rail order. A lot of lessons have been learned since then, and the Type 9 specification should produce a much better car, no matter the builder.
 
just out of curiosity - aside from initial cost - how much money could the MBTA theoretically save by ending a handful of bus lines at Roslindale if they extended the orange line one stop?

I know operating cost of running a train 1 mile is about 1.5 times one mile of one bus and there are 8 or 9 buses that run that one length of washington street.

I know it's not going to be a direct translation, but it seems like if there is money floating around for improvement projects, this might actually end up helping the T in the long run.
 
It's not clear to me that the buses would stop running on Washington Street. It's a populated corridor and one of the main reasons that people go to Forest Hills is to connect to another bus, too. Asking people to connect via an additional one-stop Orange Line trip from Roslindale to Forest Hills seems unreasonable, when they formerly had a direct connection.
 
Would all the busses continue running to FH? Surely some of them would, while others terminated at Rozzie.
 
Matthew said:
It's not clear to me that the buses would stop running on Washington Street. It's a populated corridor and one of the main reasons that people go to Forest Hills is to connect to another bus, too. Asking people to connect via an additional one-stop Orange Line trip from Roslindale to Forest Hills seems unreasonable, when they formerly had a direct connection.
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One of the main reasons? I'm not so easily convinced. To be sure, they happen, but there's no doubt the primary function is bus-to-OL and the reverse. The people who live between the Square and Forest Hills wouldn't lose that connectivity, either. It's the people who live beyond Roslindale Square that would have to make a bus-OL-bus connection, but they are predominantly connecting to the Orange Line for Back Bay/Downtown service anyway.

Not to mention, thinking about how congested Washington Street is during both the morning and evening rush hour, a bus-OL-bus connection via Roslindale Square would probably be similar/faster/more reliable than a bus-bus connection via Forest Hills.
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
Would all the buses continue running to FH? Surely some of them would, while others terminated at Rozzie.
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That is the way I see it too. A couple of lines would continue to FH, giving service to Washington street, and the rest (8?) would finish at Roslindale. Right now people living at Washington street have a bus coming every minute, and that makes every one of them very inefficient, having to stop in every stop to pick up 1 person. It would be much more sensible to have a bus every 3-4-5 min picking up a few more. I am surprised that, as a first step towards the T stop in Roslindale, half the lines that go trough Washington street don't become "express" with stops in FH and Roslindale square (maybe one half way).

I don't know what I am more surprised of, the fact that this, to me, without proper knowledge, trivial, extension of the OL hasn't happened already, or the fact that there is not more "buzz" demanding it. Both shocking.
 
omaja said:
One of the main reasons? I'm not so easily convinced. To be sure, they happen, but there's no doubt the primary function is bus-to-OL and the reverse. The people who live between the Square and Forest Hills wouldn't lose that connectivity, either. It's the people who live beyond Roslindale Square that would have to make a bus-OL-bus connection, but they are predominantly connecting to the Orange Line for Back Bay/Downtown service anyway.

Not to mention, thinking about how congested Washington Street is during both the morning and evening rush hour, a bus-OL-bus connection via Roslindale Square would probably be similar/faster/more reliable than a bus-bus connection via Forest Hills.
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it is worth finding out which lines have the most people who do bus-to-bus at forest hills - because then you'd know which lines to keep running up washington. although - that leg is only about half the buses that go to forest hills anyway...

If I were to guess, i'd say the belgrade ave lines and the 51 would be the most easy to terminate at the square.
 
rinserepeat said:
it is worth finding out which lines have the most people who do bus-to-bus at forest hills - because then you'd know which lines to keep running up washington. although - that leg is only about half the buses that go to forest hills anyway...

If I were to guess, i'd say the belgrade ave lines and the 51 would be the most easy to terminate at the square.
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You can go through MBTA 2008-2009 passenger surveys:
http://ctps.org/Drupal/2008_09_mbta_survey

specifically for Arborway Garage routes:
http://ctps.org/Drupal/data/pdf/studies/transit/MBTA_Passenger_Survey/Arborway_Garage_Volume.pdf

and see how many people by bus route transfer to/from other bus routes
 
winstonoboogie said:
You can go through MBTA 2008-2009 passenger surveys:
http://ctps.org/Drupal/2008_09_mbta_survey

specifically for Arborway Garage routes:
http://ctps.org/Drupal/data/pdf/studies/transit/MBTA_Passenger_Survey/Arborway_Garage_Volume.pdf

and see how many people by bus route transfer to/from other bus routes
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second one doesn't tell you if they transferred to another bus or subway - just gives % breakdown of origin and destinations. the orange line survey is a little more useful. Here's what I noticed.

a lot of people on the 14 bus appear to be going to the orange line - stop in rozzie might help these people (although maybe they transfer up closer to dudley)

51 bus looks like a lot of people ride to the green to get to longwood, and the rest are mostly going to the orange line.

pretty much all bus lines that run through roslindale square, most people are likely using it for orange line connection - although another chunk are using it to get to longwood - we don't know if they're hopping on the 39 or going to ruggles and taking the shuttle, though.

from the orange line survey - looks like a rozzie stop would probably capture around 6,000+ people who already regularly use the orange line - plus I'm sure would add a number of new riders (like my neighbor who drives to the south end near the mass ave stop, or the families I know who regularly drive to JP on the weekends) - and especially if a stop encourages commercial and residential development in the square.

even just 6,000 boardings a day would place it somewhere in the middle in terms of busiest stations - and about the same as the projected average individual station ridership on the green line extension.

so - why isn't this happening?
 
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rinserepeat said:
second one doesn't tell you if they transferred to another bus or subway - just gives % breakdown of origin and destinations. tg?
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The "Access to the Bus" and "Egress from the Bus" tables for each route tell you how many transfer to/from other bus routes. Using Route 36 as an example, on PDF page 131, shows 81 people transferring from Route 36 to Route 39 and 20 people transferring from Route 36 to Route 16
 
To be clear, I think that Orange Line extension to Roslindale should happen. I just don't know if it's going to make sense to cut back the bus routes.

The 77 didn't stop running to Harvard just because the Alewife extension was built. Harvard is just too important a hub. Same goes for Forest Hills.
 
Matthew said:
To be clear, I think that Orange Line extension to Roslindale should happen. I just don't know if it's going to make sense to cut back the bus routes.

The 77 didn't stop running to Harvard just because the Alewife extension was built. Harvard is just too important a hub. Same goes for Forest Hills.
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I just don't know if it's going to make sense to cut back ALL the bus routes.

Some will stay. Washington street is too important to leave it with no buses. The question is: How many of the 10 lines? 2?
 
The 77 didn't stop running to Harvard just because the Alewife extension was built. Harvard is just too important a hub. Same goes for Forest Hills.
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I think the difference is that Harvard is important as an employment center AKA an end of trip destination, whereas Forrest Hills isn't so much. Also, Harvard has a whole bunch of key or important bus routes all converging from different locations that would be hard or pointless to reroute via Alewife or some other station. In Forrest Hill's case, we're talking about a bunch of buses that converge before the station and travel up Washington Street together. In that case, I can't imagine rerouting through Roslindale would be as much of a problem as rerouting Harvard stops through Alewife.
 
Matthew said:
To be clear, I think that Orange Line extension to Roslindale should happen. I just don't know if it's going to make sense to cut back the bus routes.

The 77 didn't stop running to Harvard just because the Alewife extension was built. Harvard is just too important a hub. Same goes for Forest Hills.
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The 77 is one bus line and it serves a stretch of Cambridge north of Porter/Davis that don't have quick and easy strolls to the Red Line. It's not redundant, even between Porter and Harvard since the Red Line stations are so far apart in Cambridge.

Were there to be an OLX to Rozzie and a maintenance of all the busses that currently run to both Roz Sq and Forest Hills there would be what, ten bus routes running on Washington between the stations? Mass Ave north of Harvard has nothing like that with just the 77/77a and the 83 which splits to Somerville at Porter.

Obviously there would still be some routes running to hit both Roslindale and Forest Hills, but and extension to Roslindale means that there can be far fewer.
 
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