The St Regis Residences (former Whiskey Priest site) | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

West said:
I am not saying the CLF are heroic. I’m pointing out what they’re trying to do on this particular case. I’m not familiar with the IMAX saga so I can’t comment there, I have no idea why CLF didn’t sue.
..
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That's because the IMAX saga concerning Chap 91 was supported by the same group of people creating a problem for the Cronin Development along with Harbor Garage development.

When you have Billions of dollars in non-profit money to give away you can tie up any specific development in the court systems for decades on anytype of zoning or regulation laws concerning your personal agendas.

The non-profit Barr Foundation calling the shots on what should and shouldn't be built through their non-profit donations to these agencies. What's the sense of having the BRA at this point?

My main problem with CLF & the Barr Foundation is why did they not focus on the open space in the Seaport concerning Chap 91 instead of the pre-existing structures? Those structures should be rebuilt for better public use. They are already blocking 90% of the waterfront from the public. So what is the point? It has to be personal.

Justin--- How do you like them APPLES?
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Call me--- we can do lunch at Legals roof deck.

The realty to Boston Commercial Development--Cutthroat
 
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Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

falcon42 said:
All the inside dealings in the city make me laugh. Its hard to take groups like this seriously when they selectively go after developments. Cronin should have been a major donor to them and I'm willing to bet they wouldn't have this problem right now :)
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Selective enforcement is nauseating, as it happens with the shadow law, 40B and many others. But as Stellar points out, CLF has standing and knows the law thoroughly. The timing is curious though, and I find it hard to believe that there were not some back channel attempts to rectify it before it got to this point. Or Cronin's lawyer committed malpractice. Either way, follow the money.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

stellarfun said:
Rover,

This in court because a.) Cronin tried to pull a fast one, or, b.) has incompetent lawyers. The other developers along the waterfront dotted the eyes and crossed the t's.


Have a look at the development team behind this project, there is a lot more to this lawsuit than the developer trying to pull a fast one, also the legal team is one of the most experienced in the City having worked on the entire redevelopment of WTC and Seaport for Fidelity and John Drew, including all Ch.91 issues.

Rifleman is on the right track here.
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Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

TheRifleman said:
That's because the IMAX saga concerning Chap 91 was supported by the same group of people creating a problem for the Cronin Development along with Harbor Garage development.
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OK, fair enough. So, if you didn’t like the IMAX impact on the waterfront, why didn’t you challenge it in court? Was there basis to do so? What was it?

TheRifleman said:
When you have Billions of dollars in non-profit money to give away you can tie up any specific development in the court systems for decades on any type of zoning or regulation laws concerning your personal agendas.
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No, as a matter of legal fact, you cannot tie up any specific development for decades on any type of zoning etc concerning your personal agenda. Even if you have billions, you have to have some hook upon which to litigate. Cronin and/or his attorneys and the state provided the hook; several hooks, perhaps.

TheRifleman said:
The non-profit Barr Foundation calling the shots on what should and shouldn't be built through their non-profit donations to these agencies. What's the sense of having the BRA at this point?
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Even by your standards, this is weak. The Barr Foundation is not calling the shots on what gets built and what doesn’t. They do exercise their influence, which is not trivial, but they’re not some cartoon super villain controlling it all while lurking in the shadows going bwa-hahahahahaha… And the BPDA is not even remotely toothless in the face of the Barr Foundation or any other advocacy group.

This CLF suit is just one step. For all any of us know, Cronin's lawyers may have a good answer for that special permit issue, though it's up to the state to make the main defense, as they're the defendants. Or, as Rover suggested, it might get negotiated out to some deal that all sides can live with. This battle on the Cronin site ain’t over. In fact, it’s hardly started, but you’re already muttering about the dark conspiracies that brought about the terrible defeat. Brace up, pull your socks up.

It’s a good thing for Cronin that you’re not one of his lawyers or financial advisors, with you on his team he’d have to just fold and give up.

TheRifleman said:
The reality to Boston Commercial Development--Cutthroat
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Well, yeah, no shit Sherlock. For the millionth time, you've stated the ultra-obvious as if you are imparting news. So, it's cutthroat.... And? Cronin and his team need to sharpen their knives, which they know how to do. Why didn't they sharpen their knives on some of these points earlier?
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

West said:
OK, fair enough. So, if you didn’t like the IMAX impact on the waterfront, why didn’t you challenge it in court? Was there basis to do so? What was it?



No, as a matter of legal fact, you cannot tie up any specific development for decades on any type of zoning etc concerning your personal agenda. Even if you have billions, you have to have some hook upon which to litigate. Cronin and/or his attorneys and the state provided the hook; several hooks, perhaps.



Even by your standards, this is weak. The Barr Foundation is not calling the shots on what gets built and what doesn’t. They do exercise their influence, which is not trivial, but they’re not some cartoon super villain controlling it all while lurking in the shadows going bwa-hahahahahaha… And the BPDA is not even remotely toothless in the face of the Barr Foundation or any other advocacy group.

This CLF suit is just one step. For all any of us know, Cronin's lawyers may have a good answer for that special permit issue, though it's up to the state to make the main defense, as they're the defendants. Or, as Rover suggested, it might get negotiated out to some deal that all sides can live with. This battle on the Cronin site ain’t over. In fact, it’s hardly started, but you’re already muttering about the dark conspiracies that brought about the terrible defeat. Brace up, pull your socks up.

It’s a good thing for Cronin that you’re not one of his lawyers or financial advisors, with you on his team he’d have to just fold and give up.



Well, yeah, no shit Sherlock. For the millionth time, you've stated the ultra-obvious as if you are imparting news. So, it's cutthroat.... And? Cronin and his team need to sharpen their knives, which they know how to do. Why didn't they sharpen their knives on some of these points earlier?
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West throughout all your flawless posts.

It all comes down to MONEY. Money is what makes people move. And yes if you have unlimited amounts of money you can dig real deep on all the zoning or real estate laws dated back since the beginning of time and try to find something to drag the developer into court for a very long-time on specific developments.

If your diverted millions of dollars into certain groups and start positioning those groups to find certain guidelines concerning waterfront development then it will make developing on Boston's waterfront very difficult which will only be setting up lawsuits against developers.

I saw the Barr Foundation coming a mile away--I have been calling out their fraud on this board since the CEO Jim Canales started saying the development of Harbor Garage would be awful for that area and would wall off the waterfront. Really---The waterfront is already walled off from the public.

What is awful is the preexisting structure that was allowed to be built there to defy all chap 91 laws in the first place.

I firmly believe the CLF could careless about Whiskey Priest development this is about building a consistency against Harbor Garage in the end.

Remember Follow the MONEY. A Billionaire Non-profit vs Chiofaro/PRU group
Like a heavyweight fight coming if Harbor Garage gets approved by the city & state for 600ft.

Cronin was like Apollo Creed against the Russian. GOOD NIGHT.

Now we know why Vivien Li went running to Pittsburgh. She saw this coming.
The people that live on Boston's waterfront especially near the Greenway do not want this area to be developed. I already have mine so get lost attitude.
 
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Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

West, why are you assuming that everything/anything in the CLF appeal is factual, I sincerely doubt this development team are that inept (look at who's involved). CLF have a history of trying to delay projects until they die, no difference here and Barr funding is absolutely the driving force behind the suit.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

JANAM said:
West, why are you assuming that everything/anything in the CLF appeal is factual, I sincerely doubt this development team are that inept (look at who's involved). CLF have a history of trying to delay projects until they die, no difference here and Barr funding is absolutely the driving force behind the suit.
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JANAM, why are you assuming that I am assuming that everything in the CLF suit is factual? Read my posts. I've said repeatedly that the judge will decide whether the CLF's assertions are accurate. Don't put words in my mouth, it bogs the conversation down in wrong statements.

I do not think Cronin's team are inept in every regard or even most regards. I've made clear that I like their proposal generally and it clearly took a lot of good work to get as far as they have gotten. And I assume they'll come out swinging, maybe effectively, in response to the CLF suit. Although do take note: Cronin is not a defendant. The Commonwealth is. You do understand the difference that makes, I hope.

But that special permit has details in it that either Cronin's team and/or the City and/or the state ought to have dealt with already. Nobody's perfect. We shall see where it goes from here.

And if Barr is the driving force: so? The defendants are two wings of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The defendants have more money and power than the plaintiffs. They're facing the assertion that they don't obey their own rules. If they do in fact understand how to obey their own rules, and have in fact been obeying them, they ought to be able to defend themselves, yes?
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

West,

That's not correct, Cronin is a defendant, perhaps you should read the lawsuit.

And yes, I'm sure the defendants will vigorously defend themselves and this suit will be dismissed.... and the future suits by CLF will be dismissed... but by that stage it may have missed the cycle and CLF and Barr have achieved their goals.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Just for clarity:
CONSERVATION LAW FOUNDATION, on behalf of itself )
and its adversely affected members, and )
BRADLEY M. CAMPBELL, KATHERINE HACKL, CAROL )
RENEE GREGORY, GORDON HALL, BARBARA MAHONEY,)
DEANNA MORAN, and AJAY SAINI, residents of the )
COMMONWEALTH OF )
MASSACHUSETTS )
Plaintiffs, )
)
v. ) COMPLAINT
)
MATTHEW A. BEATON, in his official capacity as )
SECRETARY OF THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF ENERGY )
AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, and )
MARTIN SUUBERG, in his official capacity as )
COMMISSIONER OF THE DEPARTMENT OF )
ENVIRONMENTAL RESOURCES, and )
CRONIN HOLDINGS, LLC. )
Defendants.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Fair point, duly noted.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

JANAM said:
West,

And yes, I'm sure the defendants will vigorously defend themselves and this suit will be dismissed.... and the future suits by CLF will be dismissed... but by that stage it may have missed the cycle and CLF and Barr have achieved their goals.
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Why do you assume that this suit and future suits will be dismissed? I have no idea, myself. CLF has lost some lawsuits in the past, they have won some lawsuits in the past, and this one will not be determined by their past track record, it'll be determined by the judge looking at current fact patterns - if it actually goes to court. It seems way early to be declaring a victor either way; I'm certainly not doing so.

Why do you assume this is going to go the route of full-blown litigation? As you've noted, Cronin has some highly skilled attorneys. If they can figure out what the CLF / Barr Foundation collectively want, and if they can figure out how to concede that while keeping the gist of their proposal intact, this could all be over by April for all I know. You seem to simultaneously know that this is a failed lawsuit but also know that it'll last long enough to make Cronin miss the cycle. How do you know these things? I don't know anything about who's going to win or even if it's gong to make it past early discovery.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

I am curious, there are claims that CLF has filed other lawsuits holding up development of projects along the Boston Harbor waterfront. What projects?
___________________________________

In reading the development plan for the proposed PDA filed by Cronin's attorneys on April 16, 2016, note is made (on p. 1) of the need for a Chapter 91 license. No mention of there already being an existing Chapter 91 license. Methinks if Cronin's lawyer knew of the existing license, reference to it would be made in this section of the filing. I suppose its quite possible that none of the other waterfront projects that Cronin's attorney previously handled were of properties with an extant Chapter 91 license, so not on the 'checklist'.

With respect to standing, the quoted section below is from a Federal district court memorandum and order in a CLF lawsuit against the Federal EPA with respect to EPA NPDES permit limits on discharges into certain navigable waters.

... It would be well within the court's discretion to deny plaintiffs' [CLF] belated request to have the Molyneaux and Ross affidavits made part of the evidentiary record. Lujan and its progeny put plaintiffs on notice of their need to provide admissible evidence that they, or their members, have standing to litigate their claims. Plaintiffs' counsel evidently recognized this requirement and included allegations concerning standing in the complaint. See Compl. ¶10. Defendants' motion for summary judgment and supporting memorandum put plaintiffs on notice that their standing was disputed, yet plaintiffs did not respond by filing the required affidavits. The court prepared to hear and decide orally the motions for summary judgment on a record the parties agreed was complete. Permitting belated supplementation of the evidentiary record requires the court to expend additional time and effort to reanalyze the issues, at the expense of other matters on the court's docket.

However, the court recognizes that this case is important to the parties. In addition, the court prefers to decide matters on their merits and not allow parties to suffer from the errors of their counsel. Therefore, the court has, on reflection, decided to admit the Molyneaux and Ross affidavits as Exhibits 70 and 71 respectively.
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[Emphasis mine]
CLF v. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(Summary judgment dismissing the CLF complaint because of insufficient standing.)
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

It's amazing how much due diligence that Stellarfun and West have given on these specific developments concerning Chap 91 laws and really not have an actual theory on what is CLF actual goal out of all this?
If they want more consistency in the developmental laws and rules then Chap 91 really needs to be better defined between actual open space vs preexisting structures that already block 90% of the waterfront from the overall public.

To get better developmental planning on the Waterfront or better Architecture in the future I don't believe CLF is accomplishing its goals by going after specific developments only to depress economic activity which would be good for the overall public.

CLF/Barr Foundation could have used its valuable time & resources by actually forcing a more open debate concerning the open space from being developed.
OPEN SPACE--Development
IMAX Development---
Seaport District--
Wynn Development
Atlantic Wharf

It seems that CLF/Barr Foundation is only worried about the pre-existing structures which in the end are already blocking the space or creates a dead zone for the public which completely defies what Chap 91 is supposed to prevent.
Preexisting Structures already blocking 90% of the waterfront from the public.
Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Ave Development
Harbor Garage

So what is the real agenda here that CLF is trying to accomplish?
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Wow, the last 2 pages just blew my mind. This lawsuit is just as absurd as whatever was filed with the city last year over the Winthrop Sq garage sale. And fortunately, that didn't last long.

Something is getting built, and it won't be long. I am a little fearful that either a compromise or a litigation bill is going to diminish the current design.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Approved by the Zoning Commission today, a unanimous vote and not one person or group spoke in opposition.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

JANAM said:
Approved by the Zoning Commission today, a unanimous vote and not one person or group spoke in opposition.
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I sort of understand the opposition to the original Harbor Garage towers, I don't understand the opposition to this.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

CLF’s quote here is consistent with the crux of their suit: The developer is seeking credit for providing a new amenity (12 foot wide harbor walk) when he was all along supposed to be providing a 25 foot walk, and never did. And CLF asserts the state would be violating its own rules to approve that.

Everyone’s entitled to disagree with that, and CLF might lose in court, but I find CLF’s logic entirely simple to understand. They want Cronin to apply for this deal in the context of their existing contract terms with the state, not in the context of how that contract has been apparently violated for many years, and they want the state to consider the application that way, too.

The outlines of a settlement are also incredibly easy to see. Increase the walkway to 25 feet. Don’t proclaim it a “new” benefit, acknowledge that it’s getting into conformity with the exiting special use lease. Shift Cronin’s proposed donation to Martin Richards Park (which has a line of corporate donors round the block and doesn't need Cronin's $) over to this to help pay for the wider walk. Call Cronin’s contribution to off-site senior affordable housing the public benefit to offset the increase site coverage: looks like a good trade. Done!!

I even perceive a bit of good cop / bad cop: Boston Harbor Now’s quote included “They were given a 5K SF amplification by the state for Seaport Wharf — we want to make sure they take advantage and make the public facilities meaningful.” Note the phrases “given … by the state” and “make the public facilities meaningful.” So BHN does the nice cop thing in this forum, CLF’s the bad cop over in court…..

If I were advising Cronin, I'd tell him to invite CLF, BHN, the two State depts. named in the suit, and BPDA, to a meeting with structured mediation rules in place (i.e., nothing said in the room can be used later in court) and putting the above offer on the table and talking it through. He may have done this. If CLF blew him off, then I’d advise him to go public with the above offer (structured mediation says you can't use it in court of law, but you can use it in the court of public opinion). I’d hang my head and do a mea culpa on the fact that I blew off the deck in the old contract (the Steve Martin "I forgoooot!" except with some varnish on it, unless there's actually a better reason). Then I'd repeat the offer and shift the conversation to how great it’ll be to have that deck that's been missing, plus some senior housing, plus a cool looking new building instead of two run down bars, and I'd brag about how great it'd be for Chapter 91 implementation (bit of a stretch, there, but I'd throw it out there). Put CLF onto the defensive.

If all that happened for real, or something like it, and CLF would not counter-offer in some meaningful way, then I'd be way more open to the argument forwarded by others here that this is all a roundabout play that's actually aimed at That Other Development That Shall Not Be Named Or Else Rifleman Will Discharge Again.

I have had the pleasure of working with several really good mediators in my time, either of whom could have had this solved in an afternoon.

And for the umpteenth time I say: I'd love to see this built, or something as close as can be to this. It's a great design. But Cronin's put himself into a sticky wicket by his approach (unless he actually has some good reason for never building that walkway he is contractually obliged to be already providing).
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

west, i think a reason that Cronin and the previous owner didn't build the walkway was the land they owned was too small for both the walkway and their commercial enterprises. Even now, Cronin depends on Tishman Speyer (Chiofaro's great and good friend) selling him a portion of their land, or providing an easement on such, for him to even build his building, let alone the walkway. And who was the previous owner of that land? Anthony Athanas. Enough said.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

""But Cronin's put himself into a sticky wicket by his approach (unless he actually has some good reason for never building that walkway he is contractually obliged to be already providing).""

You make some good points. This developer, nor the previous owners, were ever going to be able to build the harborwalk as required in the old license because they didn't/don't own the property to the north (Anthony's owned the watersheet and sued to prevent the construction of the harborwalk), or the property to the east owned by Massport. To gain control of these parcels requires a large commitment that can only be made with a major redevelopment of the property.
 
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