Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I decided that if this doesn't get built I'm moving out of Boston...the city needs this development and the $$$ and if it gets shut down by a few miserable donkeys then f it...I'm leaving.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

You stay and fight dont bail on your city. Boston is much more than this 1 tower anyways, but to each his own.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

stick n move said:
You stay and fight dont bail on your city. Boston is much more than this 1 tower anyways, but to each his own.
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Heck, Winthrop Square itself is fine. It's a marvelous little square even with the hulking garage.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

617 said:
I decided that if this doesn't get built I'm moving out of Boston...the city needs this development and the $$$ and if it gets shut down by a few miserable donkeys then f it...I'm leaving.
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Don't be silly. If you're going to go away mad, find something more substantive to go away mad over than just one property. I'm sure you can do so, if you really want to go away mad. Or, as stick n move suggests, you can stay and fight - but if you do that, stay and fight over more than one property.

The most likely reason for this proposal to not happen is for market reasons. Some market softness was probably coming due anyhow, but we keep seeing more and more signs that investors may pull back somewhat. I am NOT thinking we see anything even remotely like 2008 and ensuing years. But we could very possibly see a pause on some of the higher end stuff. Sites like this one, where not too much has yet been invested (some soft cost $ for proposals) would be the prime candidates, as investors may opt to let the pipeline clear a bit before adding to it. We'll see. This one could still end up on the "go" side of the cusp, even if the cusp is nigh on arrival.

Please note: "pause" does not suggest "forever". If it's a more typical recession, we're talking a few years.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

During the "Ask the Governor" segment of Boston Public Radio today, a caller asked Gov. Baker about the shadow issue, in particular with regard to this proposal. He said he didn't know anything about the shadow law, and will need to look into it to have an opinion.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

617 said:
I decided that if this doesn't get built I'm moving out of Boston...the city needs this development and the $$$ and if it gets shut down by a few miserable donkeys then f it...I'm leaving.
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BPDA listened to the people who supported the Garden Garage project. We made a difference. BPDA holds the just and moral highground on development, job growth and the mandate to make housing plentiful and affordable in this city. But, they still need us to show up to the meetings and be a neutralizing agent to the ill-tempered, anti-development wingnuts. When we voice our support for the Winthrop Garage redevelopment, 1 Bromfield, SST, Harbor Garage, 2 Charlesgate W, Parcel 15, Whiskey Priest, and Tremont Crossing, good things can happen. Doesn't always work out, but every bit of support helps, and it's greatly appreciated by Dir Golden, Secy Polemus and Board. There are very few people who have a just cause in blocking a project. When we speak in favor, Boston wins. The benefit that will be gained by the people going many years forward - can not easily be weighed.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

odurandina said:
BPDA listened to the people who supported the Garden Garage project. We made a difference. BPDA holds the just and moral highground on development, job growth and the mandate to make housing plentiful and affordable in this city. But, they still need us to show up to the meetings and be a neutralizing agent to the ill-tempered, anti-development wingnuts. When we voice our support for the Winthrop Garage redevelopment, 1 Bromfield, SST, Harbor Garage, 2 Charlesgate W, Parcel 15, Whiskey Priest, and Tremont Crossing, good things can happen. Doesn't always work out, but every bit of support helps, and it's greatly appreciated by Dir Golden, Secy Polemus and Board. There are very few people who have a just cause in blocking a project. When we speak in favor, Boston wins. The benefit that will be gained by the people going many years forward - can not easily be weighed.
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If we don't build smart, efficient and tall on centrally located transit platforms this creates traffic havoc on all of us.

When development is scattered throughout the city without efficient transit access we all get to all SIT in traffic all day.

Think smart, build smart, be smart. (Rifleman Logic 101)
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Its definitely good to see members of this forum attending meetings and voicing their support. As Odu said it makes a difference. We need to keep this up and though Im swamped right now I need to also make an effort to get out to some of these as well.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Good presentation so far.

They will drill to bedrock from street level, and do the parking levels without excavating a complete hole.

update;

They're discussing the shadow impacts over the calendar year in video format.

Barely noticable shadow impacts.

How did this become newsworthy??
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

West said:
.....

The most likely reason for this proposal to not happen is for market reasons. Some market softness was probably coming due anyhow, but we keep seeing more and more signs that investors may pull back somewhat. I am NOT thinking we see anything even remotely like 2008 and ensuing years. But we could very possibly see a pause on some of the higher end stuff. Sites like this one, where not too much has yet been invested (some soft cost $ for proposals) would be the prime candidates, as investors may opt to let the pipeline clear a bit before adding to it. We'll see. This one could still end up on the "go" side of the cusp, even if the cusp is nigh on arrival.

Please note: "pause" does not suggest "forever". If it's a more typical recession, we're talking a few years.
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The epic building boom that has added thousands of luxury housing units in the Boston area may have peaked, as a report to be released Tuesday by an influential foundation suggests the region has run out of customers willing to shell out huge sums in monthly rents.
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http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...-slows-down/PTj2lMWsmtfS2Y8BC0XVJM/story.html
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I think they should tear the garage down and build the sheep pasture we were promised at the Filene's site.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

statler said:
I think they should tear the garage down and build the sheep pasture we were promised at the Filene's site.
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A sheep pasture with no shadows on it, please.

I was never a fan of this project going all-residential. I would have liked to see mixed-use, with offices on the lower floors. I don't think the article on luxe housing slow-down tells the full picture in Bos. I still believe we are going to hear about a few major corporate relocations into the city that will give a bump to the office market, and carry with it mid-high tier housing demand. That's my prediction - there's a lot of under-the-radar momentum in the Boston tech corporate scene right now (and I'm not just talking about all the start-up BS).
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

bigpicture7 said:
A sheep pasture with no shadows on it, please.

I was never a fan of this project going all-residential. I would have liked to see mixed-use, with offices on the lower floors. I don't think the article on luxe housing slow-down tells the full picture in Bos. I still believe we are going to hear about a few major corporate relocations into the city that will give a bump to the office market, and carry with it mid-high tier housing demand. That's my prediction - there's a lot of under-the-radar momentum in the Boston tech corporate scene right now (and I'm not just talking about all the start-up BS).
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It isn't all-residential. A little less than half of the square footage is office.

Concerning the Globe article, it and the report it's quoting are going off of one piece of data - new units permitted. As Logan himself admits, that's not actually a measure of demand, but a measure of supply. It could mean that suburbs are refusing to permit large projects, or that major projects in Boston are under construction but were not permitted in 2016.

Logan also admits that rents remain very high and are expected to increase as construction slows. THAT is the measure of demand. At multiple points in the article quoted officials highlight the need for additional construction, lest Boston rents increase to San Francisco levels.

The luxury housing tower boom may have peaked with One Dalton, but we aren't anywhere near built out.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I thought this was condo, not rentals? While the two are probably linked in someway (like all of the real estate market), slumping high-end luxury rents makes sense to me where high-end luxury condos would still sell.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I've said this before and the Globe article has me all worked up about it again - I think we can all be well served by dropping the meaningless words "luxury" and "high-end" from these discussions. New construction is new construction and it is priced as high as the market will bear. The finishes and amenities offered in new construction similarly are driven by consumer demand, not marketing departments' word choice.

There isn't a "luxury" real estate market that is separate from the normal real estate market. There is one-and-only market and it has a price spectrum. The fact that just about all new construction in metro Boston is selling at the "high-end" of the spectrum is entirely because new construction is both scarce and desirable. Only when demand for the most profitable product is fulfilled will lower profit products be offered and THEN only if they are in fact profitable. We need to control construction/permitting costs such that lower priced units can be produced after so-called "high-end" demand stabilizes.

Subsidies are a stop-gap measure only. We should continue the affordable housing requirement we currently have, but honestly we'd be better off leverage market efficiency than legislating profits into the hands of select developers and giving away affordable homes based on lottery. Those types of subsidies should be for the truly destitute and not for the middle-class.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

fattony said:
I've said this before and the Globe article has me all worked up about it again - I think we can all be well served by dropping the meaningless words "luxury" and "high-end" from these discussions. New construction is new construction and it is priced as high as the market will bear. The finishes and amenities offered in new construction similarly are driven by consumer demand, not marketing departments' word choice.

There isn't a "luxury" real estate market that is separate from the normal real estate market. There is one-and-only market and it has a price spectrum. The fact that just about all new construction in metro Boston is selling at the "high-end" of the spectrum is entirely because new construction is both scarce and desirable. Only when demand for the most profitable product is fulfilled will lower profit products be offered and THEN only if they are in fact profitable. We need to control construction/permitting costs such that lower priced units can be produced after so-called "high-end" demand stabilizes.

Subsidies are a stop-gap measure only. We should continue the affordable housing requirement we currently have, but honestly we'd be better off leverage market efficiency than legislating profits into the hands of select developers and giving away affordable homes based on lottery. Those types of subsidies should be for the truly destitute and not for the middle-class.
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I do agree, but, what happens when the only way to profit is to build at the high end and charge that much for it? Developers won't all of the sudden start building mode middle class/affordable housing because the upper tier is saturated if they aren't going to make money off of it, and while permitting/zoning plays into this, so does the high cost of land + labor. Just seems like an interesting situation to be in, and I really don't know what the best solution would be.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

bakgwailo said:
I do agree, but, what happens when the only way to profit is to build at the high end and charge that much for it? Developers won't all of the sudden start building mode middle class/affordable housing because the upper tier is saturated if they aren't going to make money off of it, and while permitting/zoning plays into this, so does the high cost of land + labor.
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Precisely. That is the dilemma in a nutshell. Nobody is in business to tread water, they want to make a profit. It astounds me to read comments on the Globe (or anywhere) deriding the profit motive as if there were some other motive for business.

bakgwailo said:
Just seems like an interesting situation to be in, and I really don't know what the best solution would be.
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As I mentioned briefly in my last post, one solution is to attempt subsidies. There are a couple ways to do that. One is what we presently do, which is force the higher priced units to pay extra to subsidize low-income units. This, of course, tends to hollow out the middle.

The old-fashioned way is for the city to build at-cost on city-owned land. This removes the cost of profit that a developer requires, but does nothing for labor/construction cost. It also does nothing for the city's tax rolls. Historically, public housing has come out very poorly.

Another subsidy method is federal tax credits for low-income units. This at least brings in money from outside the city and results in some competent developer making some profit and the city (I believe) gets to collect property taxes. This of course gets back to the problem of winner/losers getting picked by governments or at random.

The city has some policy tools to affect construction costs:

- As-of-right zoning means a developer can purchase a property with a plan in mind and little risk that the plan cannot be executed. That risk factor alone a big problem in Boston.

- The city can also give tax breaks which I generally support as an effective tool. You give the property the first 10-20 years tax-free and then the building will pay taxes for 50-100 years (whatever the life of the building) after the break expires.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

fattony said:
- As-of-right zoning means a developer can purchase a property with a plan in mind and little risk that the plan cannot be executed. That risk factor alone a big problem in Boston.

- The city can also give tax breaks which I generally support as an effective tool. You give the property the first 10-20 years tax-free and then the building will pay taxes for 50-100 years (whatever the life of the building) after the break expires.
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As-of-right zoning would be interesting... but I don't see it being politically feasible. We should at the very least have it in the downtown/financial district, but just look at the NIMBY complaints even there. It would be political suicide to try to do it.

As for the tax incentives - I agree. I always rather liked NYC's Mitchell-Lama program as a way to encourage developers to build middle income housing.
 
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