Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

KriterionBOS said:
Always wondered this...is MT and Winthrop Center designed by the same Millenium Partners company?
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Millennium's architect is Handel Architects. They are both done by Handel (along with Hayward Place, now Millennium Place)
 
The great hall is a lobby, before and after the changes. Lots of office lobbies are technically open to the public, with security before the elevators. Exchange Place is a good example of this, it's a beautiful lobby. But it's still empty on weekends or non work days.

Millennium had interesting marketing trying to offer their lobby as a "public benefit".
 
Not to go too far off topic, this thread is in the shitter anyways, but with measure-m LA is going to undergo massive changes in our lifetime. The skyline is exploding, the metro will be the 2nd most extensive in the US, the NFL stadium is going to be the nicest most expensive stadium on earth, its going to be a very different city. As a city known for its sprawl were going to see it get much denser around the transit lines. Its pretty disheartening to watch LA in the process of quadroupling their subway system and we cant even do red-blue or nsrl. When just 1 small part of what theyre doing right now is an 8 mile extension up crenshaw... it hurts lol. Just knowing how absolutely enormous electrification-nsrl and red-blue would be for the Boston area and were not even close, yet other cities like Houston, Charlotte, Seattle, Atlanta, LA are doing MASSIVE expansions, its very disheartening. I agree with people saying the MBTA needs the books opened and thoroughly gone through, before we then start doing the absolutely needed expansions, enough is enough.

Anyways Millennium tower is going to stay the crown of downtown. Looking at all the renders of how this is going to look on the skyline theres only a very limited amount of angles which make this look a tad bit taller. MT looks the tallest or equal from most angles. MT is a great tower so Im not mad, but its position on the skyline makes it so it will appear tallest and remain the focal point. Winthrop center will be a nice addition next to it to though. I think they definitely need to light MTs crown. They add lighting to towers after the fact all the time, theres no reason why they couldnt here. If you guys want the skyline renders of all the different angles of winthrop center on the skyline I can post them, but MT is going to stay the focal point of the skyline.
 
stick n move said:
Not to go too far off topic, this thread is in the shitter anyways, but with measure-m LA is going to undergo massive changes in our lifetime. The skyline is exploding, the metro will be the 2nd most extensive in the US, the NFL stadium is going to be the nicest most expensive stadium on earth, its going to be a very different city. As a city known for its sprawl were going to see it get much denser around the transit lines. Its pretty disheartening to watch LA in the process of quadroupling their subway system and we cant even do red-blue or nsrl. When just 1 small part of what theyre doing right now is an 8 mile extension up crenshaw... it hurts lol. Just knowing how absolutely enormous electrification-nsrl and red-blue would be for the Boston area and were not even close, yet other cities like Houston, Charlotte, Seattle, Atlanta, LA are doing MASSIVE expansions, its very disheartening. I agree with people saying the MBTA needs the books opened and thoroughly gone through, before we then start doing the absolutely needed expansions, enough is enough.

Anyways Millennium tower is going to stay the crown of downtown. Looking at all the renders of how this is going to look on the skyline theres only a very limited amount of angles which make this look a tad bit taller. MT looks the tallest or equal from most angles. MT is a great tower so Im not mad, but its position on the skyline makes it so it will appear tallest and remain the focal point. Winthrop center will be a nice addition next to it to though. I think they definitely need to light MTs crown. They add lighting to towers after the fact all the time, theres no reason why they couldnt here. If you guys want the skyline renders of all the different angles of winthrop center on the skyline I can post them, but MT is going to stay the focal point of the skyline.
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you're crazy. my kinda crazy
 
Beton Brut said:
...a poor process explains its results. You just need to know where to look.
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Equilibria said:
....While they've slightly let us down on that in this case, they've also turned a decrepit garage into hundreds of millions of dollars for the public good.....
....if they'd really failed us, we'd be getting the v2 craptastic design.
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Beyond the various costs of obtaining 'x' build site, public owned vs private are the (relatively) paltry FAR's vs Boston's draconian approval process + negotiated benefits. We must remain mindful; exceptions distort our view:

MT's acquisition of the Vornado hole–timed with the exit of Menino, the nimby's asleep & smooth process to build tall, and the cost to deliver that space–was market precision, and a once in a century type event that will not be repeated again.

Someone mentioned the 125 Lincoln St Garage site; why ~370'/Flynn/Menino era vs MT or even Copley Tower height? The past shows the cost of getting approved rises exponentially around a general height of 375~400'. We've been a [build it 400' or risk dire consequences] type of market since the 1980's.

You need to do incredibly tall before you can include public spaces in these structures, let alone on the upper floors. Compare to prices for the 9th floor waterfront views at Pier 4 vs gifting that booty away! Assured: Chiofaro's best $$$ design tower is being held up for the 7 or 8 additional floors he's not able to add on the top of the bldg. 40 Trinity, Copley Tower are probably dead of the same fate.

In NYC they build @ double, triple the FAR, and the ROI's dwarf Boston. Yet even in NYC, barely anything is offered! You see public spaces, K-12 schools, etc w/ 900'~1000' and taller buildings. In Boston it's a challenge even to build even for zero public space. It will get worse. We don't even possess the land for pencil towers. And the nimby's will fight just about any site left--if the City doesn't stop you long before it gets to the BCDC. We begin to see why there hasn't been a tower proposed taller than ~370' in over 3 years.

This is precisely why the City should make every effort to bring back Copley Tower, Columbus Ctr & 1 Bromfield St–and be open to tall development at sites such as 1076 Boylston St, 65 Martha Rd & 2 Charlesgate W......

stick n move said:
What if they had proposed this from the start, would people still not like it or would there be overall support? .....this is the tower being built. Personally I like the first Accordia tower the best, by far, but at this point its not being built. No matter how good of an argument I make on ArchBoston, this is what we're getting. So that's where I'm at. This is the tower, nobody is changing it, and its really not bad....
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stick n move said:
Its pretty disheartening to watch LA in the process of quadroupling their subway system and we cant even do red-blue or nsrl. When just 1 small part of what theyre doing right now is an 8 mile extension up crenshaw... it hurts lol. Just knowing how absolutely enormous electrification-nsrl and red-blue would be for the Boston area and were not even close, yet other cities like Houston, Charlotte, Seattle, Atlanta, LA are doing MASSIVE expansions, its very disheartening. I agree with people saying the MBTA needs the books opened and thoroughly gone through, before we then start doing the absolutely needed expansions, enough is enough.
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This. Other cities are undergoing huge expansions, at reasonable prices. Yet it takes us billions of dollars and a bunch of delays to extend an above ground trolley track (with limited eminent domain, cause it's on an existing rail bed) 4 miles. It's not like labor is cheaper in LA/Seattle etc.

Look at the cost per mile for the GLX, and compare it to any other project around the world. It's astounding the difference in price.

Seattle for example, is spending 3.7 billion dollars to construct a 14 mile light rail line.

Copenhagen is building a heavy rail, self driving, 9.5 mile metro line entirely underground for 3.23 billion dollars. And this is a country where MacDonalds employees get paid 20 dollars an hour.

I have yet to hear a good argument why expansions are so much more expensive in Boston compared to Seattle or Copenhagen other than corruption, mismanagement, and inefficiencies.
 
Heres an example of its impact on the skyline from the harbor view. 1IP still retains its place here, just as Millennium retains its place from most other angles. So as far as the skyline this isn’t the spot where were getting “transformative”. MT was though. To me its not that big a deal as MT does a pretty good job as downtowns centerpiece for now. So this tower is really just another fairly tall addition to compliment MT, a lot of tax revenue, and a huge improvement over that pos garage. Thats fine. Something in a different place on the skyline with more room is going to be where a transformative tower is built, probably closer to North Station. For what this is its going to do its job and revitalize the area. Thats fine.
https://gasstation-nearme.com/shell
 
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^^Well, we're getting past circular, and into distasteful tall cheerleading! Where's 1 Bromfield St? :) We know what SST, MT, 115 Winthrop, GCG, and Boston Garden towers are doing. While it is somewhat dramatic by Boston standards, these sites have been in the planning stages for an extreme scale of time–and by the standards set by other cities; we're playing catch up.... A good many of these are projects that should have been up soon after the Big Dig, and possibly before full build-out of the Seaport.

Then again, the Seaport and big City feel we're beginning to see might have been just the gradual process Boston needed–preparing the way for people's attitudes to become more open to expanding the public realm, and building on these Downtown sites (now).

shmessy said:
I have no idea why I'm called a "NIMBY" when I fully support this project being 300 feet TALLER - - and be just as spectacular at street level too. Some are ok with half-assed. I'm rooting for this project to be maximized - - not minimized. ....If anything, that is a YIMBY. Why keep Boston sleepy with empty sidewalks after 7pm? Let's have a 24 hour vibrant Boston.....
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tysmith95 said:
This. Other cities are undergoing huge expansions, at reasonable prices. Yet it takes us billions of dollars and a bunch of delays to extend an above ground trolley track (with limited eminent domain, cause it's on an existing rail bed) 4 miles...

I have yet to hear a good argument why expansions are so much more expensive in Boston compared to Seattle or Copenhagen other than corruption, mismanagement, and inefficiencies.
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i keep returning to 'dysfunctional and likely to only get worse.' Look no further than the MBTA which, run properly, would have vastly improved our chances of winning Amazon HQ2, or seeing more participation from big international players. There's no soul searching taking place. No questioning the limits of quasi socialism, graft... or self-enlightenment; that embedded institutions put Massachusetts at even greater risk of future economic failure.
 
odurandina said:
i keep returning to 'dysfunctional and likely to only get worse.' Look no further than the MBTA which, run properly, would have vastly improved our chances of winning Amazon HQ2, or seeing more participation from big international players. There's no soul searching taking place. No questioning the limits of quasi socialism, graft... or self-enlightenment; that embedded institutions put Massachusetts at even greater risk of future economic failure.
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Amazon HQ2 was a joke, and we are getting 2-4k+ new Amazon jobs anyways (along with Google & Wayfair doubling, large Facebook expansion, Salesforce now anchoring a tower potentially, etc). The GLX was a combination of BS from the new procurement process that took the MBTA to the cleaners, which was corrected. Also, it is a fairly complex process with all of the bridge work, retaining walls, constructing next to an active rail way without disruption, etc. Plus, the final costs include not only the track/wires/stations/etc, but also the Type-9 fleet expansion, brand new maintence yard and facilities, mitigation work, bike/path way, etc. Not saying it shouldn't/couldn't be cheaper, but, its also not quite an apples to apples comparison.
 
Recalling the extended and thoughtful conversation some were having about the public realm aspects of this project, I thought this piece might be of interest.
 
Great pictures BeeLine as always but how did you manage to miss capturing all of the protesters with big "Bring Back the Great Hall" signs outside of the construction site? I felt like I was crossing the picket line at Stop & Shop there were so many of them. ;)
 
Rover said:
[H]ow did you manage to miss capturing all of the protesters with big "Bring Back the Great Hall" signs outside of the construction site?
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Following on Suffolk's gentle imperative, I'm interested to fully understand the abrasively dismissive tone you direct toward the role of activists in the constant improvement and evolution of our built environment. I'm genuinely curious about its origins. Did a pesky neighbor object to a proposed attic dormer on your home because it would cast a shadow on her vegetable garden?

And to clarify my own position on this project, I've always thought that the City's requirement for "civic space" be baked into this development amorphously dumb. Had there been a clear requirement within the RFP for developers to partner with a cultural or social services organization, an educational institution, a city or state agency, or something similar, we may have had a better (and far less contentious) result: specific, purposefully envisioned space, programmed and operated through a joint venture.
 
Beton Brut said:
Following on Suffolk's gentle imperative, I'm interested to fully understand the abrasively dismissive tone you direct toward the role of activists in the constant improvement and evolution of our built environment. I'm genuinely curious about its origins. Did a pesky neighbor object to a proposed attic dormer on your home because it would cast a shadow on her vegetable garden?
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Sure, I'll bite.

NIMBY's are the bane of this city's existence. Almost to a person they are a self centered bunch of wannabe martyr's who seem to think their opinion is gospel. This wouldn't be a problem generally as self centered people with my way or the highway opinions are generally harmless (think of sports arguments for example).

BUT, where they have the potential to ruin, or severely kneecap a city, is when they continue to launch frivolous lawsuits and attacks against development for selfish reasons. For example, they don't want the city to change from some time period that they remember or the hate any new height, or they want their names in the paper, etc etc. Having a low level view of how municipal finance works (relative was a local yokel pol in the city that I come from) the delays in realizing badly needed tax revenue while these idiots turn mole hills into mountains is devastating for the community at large. Schools. Police. Health care. It goes on and on and on. The opportunity cost of NIMBY's and the self styled "activist" is way underreported IMHO and these people have had the stage to themselves for far too long. They, and their motives, and their arguments need to be property vetted. This is happening a lot more now and frankly most of them can't handle having to defend themselves.

Getting back to Winthrop Square, witness the total idiocy over the Great Hall, a place few if anybody was actually ever going to visit. An extremely minor point in a project that generated 150M of badly needed $$$ up front to fund affordable housing and park maintenance and upgrades.

Being polite in the face of radical lunacy, and not pushing back forcefully is what got us President Chump. Let's all learn a hard but valuable lesson from that.
 
Rover said:
Sure, I'll bite.

NIMBY's are the bane of this city's existence. Almost to a person they are a self centered bunch of wannabe martyr's who seem to think their opinion is gospel. This wouldn't be a problem generally as self centered people with my way or the highway opinions are generally harmless (think of sports arguments for example).

BUT, where they have the potential to ruin, or severely kneecap a city, is when they continue to launch frivolous lawsuits and attacks against development for selfish reasons. For example, they don't want the city to change from some time period that they remember or the hate any new height, or they want their names in the paper, etc etc. Having a low level view of how municipal finance works (relative was a local yokel pol in the city that I come from) the delays in realizing badly needed tax revenue while these idiots turn mole hills into mountains is devastating for the community at large. Schools. Police. Health care. It goes on and on and on. The opportunity cost of NIMBY's and the self styled "activist" is way underreported IMHO and these people have had the stage to themselves for far too long. They, and their motives, and their arguments need to be property vetted. This is happening a lot more now and frankly most of them can't handle having to defend themselves.

Getting back to Winthrop Square, witness the total idiocy over the Great Hall, a place few if anybody was actually ever going to visit. An extremely minor point in a project that generated 150M of badly needed $$$ up front to fund affordable housing and park maintenance and upgrades.

Being polite in the face of radical lunacy, and not pushing back forcefully is what got us President Chump. Let's all learn a hard but valuable lesson from that.
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+1 to what Suffolk and Beton Brut wrote to you.

This is a forum to exchange ideas and opinions. It's not Game of Thrones. Some folks had opinions on something that was not in lock step with yours. Most of the adults on this forum do not feel an immediate need to smite their enemies when someone dares put forth a different viewpoint.

Regarding your completely unnecessary and off-topic mention of "President Chump", I'm 100% opposed to him too. But the answer isn't to do the "Rover Thing" and hit back with Kerosene Maxine, AOC or Angry Elizabeth Warren. The US, like this forum, benefits most when it moderates and respects each other by remembering E Pluribus Unum instead of "I need to smite my enemies on the other side". Everyone loses a contest to see who can be the strongest Fascist.

Grow up, take a deep breath and examine what in your life compelled to write your ad hominem Post #4736.

.
 
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