Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

What I think this building was missing (and what Boston is missing) is a huge anchor tenant -- somebody who can bully the city for progress. Note the buildings of any height that are succeeding: BofA and NYT in New York, Comcast in Philly, Trump in Chicago, all have some big name attached to them.

Frankly, the weakest part of TNP was that the only tenant Belkin had lined up was himself. Russia Wharf, by contrast, has apparently picked up Wellington, and their construction is proceeding.

I saw just now that the new ACT in Philly may be the HQ for TD Commerce Bank, moving from Portland. Is Boston (either Tommy or Deval) competing for this? Boston is closer to their current home, so lower cost of relocation for both the company and the employees, and the cost of living can't be that much higher here.

Big buildings are currently being built by big companies (with the notable exception of Transbay in SF). Since FleetBoston and Gillette left, Boston really does not have one.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Speaking of Trump, I wonder when he plans on making an entrance here. I remember there being an article or two maybe a year ago mentioning his interest, but I imagine that with the markets being what they are he's put those plans on the backburner.

Still, considering how he's been these past few years -- hellbent on building something in just about every major North American city, from Tampa to Toronto -- I'm surprised he hasn't put forth any kind of concrete proposal for us yet. And considering how so many high-end hoteliers have flocked here this past decade (with more reportedly waiting in the wings), you'd imagine it wouldn't be hard for him to see that there's a market for the super pricey stuff.

Plus, it's Boston. We've got prestige and old world wealth up the yin yang. Come on!!
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

wow this is big i want to see other high rises in Boston
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

kz1000ps said:
Speaking of Trump, I wonder when he plans on making an entrance here. I remember there being an article or two maybe a year ago mentioning his interest, but I imagine that with the markets being what they are he's put those plans on the backburner.

Still, considering how he's been these past few years -- hellbent on building something in just about every major North American city, from Tampa to Toronto -- I'm surprised he hasn't put forth any kind of concrete proposal for us yet. And considering how so many high-end hoteliers have flocked here this past decade (with more reportedly waiting in the wings), you'd imagine it wouldn't be hard for him to see that there's a market for the super pricey stuff.

Plus, it's Boston. We've got prestige and old world wealth up the yin yang. Come on!!
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That is when I will get excited. When a big name like the Donald starts snooping around looking at sites for his next tower. Sorry Belkin, you just don't do it for me.
Boston has it's share of large corporations, but I wish they would do more to attract more. There is no reason why Boston isn't a larger player. The schools, highly educated work force, quality of life, lower rents than NYC. I am optimistic that at some point in my life, as I drive in to the city from 93 north, I'll see that 1,000 foot tower and smile!
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

DarkFenX said:
I did not say CC's height was dictated by the FAA. I said that one of the complaints back then was that the FAA claimed that it was too tall that cargo planes have to lighten the load.

I'm not specifically pointing out having a 1000ft tower. What I'm talking is that in cities such as Philadelphia, SF, Miami, And Baltimore are having projects that are much more bold than Boston. Philly is about to finish the 975ft Comcast Tower and are proposing a 1500ft tower. I believe SF has a 1200ft+ tower in the work along with what I believe 3 other 800ft+ skyscrapers proposed. Miami, though mainly residential, did experience a huge boom and would have continue had the housing market not collapsed. And Baltimore has about 4 towers that are at least 650ft tall proposed, tallest being the same height as the Prudential.

Here's what Boston have: A 1000ft tower that most likely not going to happen. A dead 800ft proposal in Chinatown. A scaled back 620ft tower in South Station which is also being delayed as of now. Everything else is below 600ft and there is only one 500+ft tower proposed other than those aforementioned and that's the Copley Tower.
Click to expand...

I erred in thinking Philadelphia didn't have a tall tower. I pass through Philly at least once a month, and hadn't noticed any building towering over the others in center city. From Emporis, its a strange tower, only 57 floors, nearly 20 fewer than what Belkin was proposing.

But all its towers, big and mid-sized, haven't saved Philadelphia from decay.

Here are excerpts from a Pew Trust comparison of seven cities, with the main focus on Philadelphia. This is from a 2007 study updating a study done eight years earlier.

  • Eight years ago, Atlanta was reported to be corrupt and stagnant; but is now enjoying a turnaround. The city is experiencing its first increase in population in 50 years, the highest average household income in the study ($69,000, despite a 28 percent poverty rate), and development that is at an all-time high.
  • Baltimore was a contradiction eight years ago with a booming Inner Harbor economy in contrast with the rest of the city, which had lost 34 percent of its population in the previous 20 or so years and was beset with social problems. But the city has stopped losing population and jobs, development is going on all over town, crime has dropped 40 percent, and school test scores and graduation rates are up.
  • In the last study, Boston was ?off the chart? in a positive direction, and it remains a city that is enjoying singular success on most measures. But a few developments have caused angst in the city: It now has arguably the nation?s highest cost of living, insufficient affordable housing and increasing transportation problems.
  • Cleveland was considered a ?comeback? city in the past, but this report finds that it has fallen on harder times. The absence of a driving coalition in civic affairs leaves the city feeling adrift at a time of rapidly deteriorating fundamentals. The city has lost 27,000 jobs in the last decade, and its population is down 10 percent in just the past half-decade. On the upside, the foundations and business leadership have created the Fund for Our Economic Future, a $30 million fund aimed at high-impact economic development initiatives.
  • Detroit is, if anything, even more troubled than it was eight years ago. The big three automakers recently announced plans to reduce their hourly workforces by some 200,000 jobs. In the last few years household incomes in the city have fallen at the rate of 6.4 percent per year, and one out of every three citizens lives in poverty. But some progress is evident as urban condo conversions and new office construction occurs downtown and along the Detroit River.
  • In many ways Pittsburgh rivals Boston and Atlanta as a desirable city to visit, live, work and invest in. The crime rate is among the lowest of the top 25 U.S. cities; the downtown is growing and vibrant; only 19 percent of the population is poor. But, the city lies in Southwestern Pennsylvania, an area that is shrinking, both economically and in population. Pittsburgh is losing population more steeply than any other city that was examined; it has the smallest percentage of foreign immigration; and its finances remain precarious.
Click to expand...
As for Philadelphia, one academic quoted in the Pew study called Philadelphia Bos-troit

Look, we?ve had a nice run of a few years of progress, but this may well be looked back upon as a blip in a trajectory of continuing decline. The fundamentals haven?t changed. This is still a largely minority poor city that is still losing population and is not gaining many jobs on net. Washington these days is no friend of cities. Harrisburg is now, somewhat, but it can return to its normal hostility after the next election. OK, Center City
seems real, but what we have is a ?Bos-troit?; that is, a Center City with the pizzazz of Boston?s surrounded by miles of neighborhoods like Detroit?s. We are still basically managing decline.
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This is Boston in detail in the Pew study:
Boston, when we last did this study, was ?off the chart? (in the positive direction) on almost any criterion we applied. A large corps of deeply
engaged business, civic and government leaders had worked effectively with three successive multi-term, competent and honest mayors over three decades. Economically, Boston had 80,000 workers in the third largest financial services sector in the world. Greater Boston was home to more than 100 colleges and universities, including two of world minence?Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

They and others had spawned hundreds of hightech firms supported by an aggressive venture capital sector (the city had ?invented? venture capital). Boston was a world-class capital of the knowledge economy.

The city also had an undeniable ?buzz? of restaurants, entertainment and artistic venues. It was hard to find a neighborhood that looked like a wasteland, the result of concerted policies by mayors to equalize services to all neighborhoods and make them livable, walkable, attractive and
exciting. The city had an effective array of community development corporations. It had also invented community policing, and crime was at a 34-year low. Boston had done away with an elected school board in favor of one appointed by the mayor, and hired nationally known school reformer Thomas Payzant, then in the third year of an eight-year contract. The city
was also starting its ?Big Dig? to bury a 10-lane superhighway splitting its downtown.

Most of this is still so, with school reform continuing, crime up a bit (but being addressed in ways that worked in the past), and the Big Dig done and its benefits now appearing. But a few developments have caused considerable ?angst? in Beantown. Several of the city?s iconic firms have been taken over by outsiders, ?decapitating? business leadership (though
others, notably the Boston Foundation, are stepping into the breach).

Boston now has arguably the nation?s highest cost of living, mainly from
?stratospheric? housing costs and insufficient affordable housing. Employers find it increasingly difficult to attract and retain low- and middle-income workers and young professionals.

Choked highways and inadequate regional mass transit make living in the suburbs difficult for workers, and affordable housing there is rare, too. With low density and dependence on property taxes for schools, the suburbs practice ?vasectomy zoning? to keep out high-density housing for families with children.

Boston and its region cry out for solutions to their housing and transportation problems, but the myriad local governments are in gridlock. It
remains to be seen whether this region?s past creativity can be revived to meet this set of challenges. A new governor who reportedly ?gets it? may help.
Click to expand...

http://www.pewtrusts.org/news_room_ektid24706.aspx
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

When was that report written? Who is this supposed new Governor they are talking about who "gets it"? They don't mean the wholly incompetent Deval Patrick, do they?
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Patrick certianly has his flaws, but he has emphasized mass transit improvements (as evidenced by his 1.3 Billion dollar transportation improvement budget) and positive development from the start. We have yet to see what this emphasis on these things will bring (if anything), but it makes me more optimistic that Romney did.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

pelhamhall said:
When was that report written? Who is this supposed new Governor they are talking about who "gets it"? They don't mean the wholly incompetent Deval Patrick, do they?
Click to expand...

Indeed, I think they do. The report was released in Feb 2007, which was after the 2006 election.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

As a Philadelphian resident, I thought I'd jump in. Just for fun. It's hard to resist sometimes.

Anyway, I think NIMBYs are the same in Philly as they are in Boston. They definitely have just as much power, especially in Society Hill and Rittenhouse Square. There have been dozens of projects halted/delayed within the past year due to NIMBYs and probably political reasons. If anyone's interested, you can find a rundown of projects and hi-jinks in Philly on phillyskyline.com, and clicking on "the skinny". The site's maintained by a local journalist.

Anyway, it's a long list of development that would be great for the city and some of it has been on the table for years. Comcast Center has an extremely long history of being scaled back and up (it was originally supposed to be over 1000 feet, scaled down to around 800, then back up to 975, for those of you who height matters). I don?t even want to think about all the development planned for the Delaware river waterfront, that is going absolutely nowhere. It?s just my opinion of course, but I think Boston has it a lot better than most cities, in terms of what gets done. We have sunken highways all through the city that would be perfect for a project like Columbus Center or a Prudential Center, but it?s something that isn?t even considered here.

It?d be great if ACC is built, and if TD Commerce decides to move here, maybe it will, but I think density is so much more important than a few tall towers. Boston has so much density, and the reason that Stellarfun never really noticed some of our taller structures may be because there is a definite lack of density here that would give everything more prominence. And Philly is a sprawling mess, outside of Center City. I went to this conference in Boston last week, for environmental design and socio-economic development, and there is a lot of community activism in Boston that you don?t really find in Philly. These aren?t NIMBYs either, these are people who want development and want to build a strong community. We have a couple neighborhoods like that here, like Northern Liberties and Fishtown (artist communities), but you really don?t find it anywhere else. And I can attest to the mention of the vast wasteland of ghetto directly outside the business district.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

BostonObserver said:
Could you give examples from the numerous neighborhood meetings you have attended.
Click to expand...

Oh don't get it twisted I dont attend meetings. I have a busy life, or maybe just a life. And am I an expert in these things? No, absolutely not. But I do recognize an idiot when I see one. I am not implying you are one, but most NIMBYs are. Like when they complain about density in the Back Bay or Downtown, or shadows. Im just not hearing it. And yes most of the times developers are only serving their own self interest, but that is all the NIMBY's are doing. Defending what they percieve as the way Boston should be, not really how Boston should be. They allways tend to make it more boring. And talk out of their asses a whole bunch.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

skintreesnail said:
As a Philadelphian resident, I thought I'd jump in. Just for fun. It's hard to resist sometimes.

Anyway, I think NIMBYs are the same in Philly as they are in Boston. They definitely have just as much power, especially in Society Hill and Rittenhouse Square. There have been dozens of projects halted/delayed within the past year due to NIMBYs and probably political reasons. If anyone's interested, you can find a rundown of projects and hi-jinks in Philly on phillyskyline.com, and clicking on "the skinny". The site's maintained by a local journalist.

Anyway, it's a long list of development that would be great for the city and some of it has been on the table for years. Comcast Center has an extremely long history of being scaled back and up (it was originally supposed to be over 1000 feet, scaled down to around 800, then back up to 975, for those of you who height matters). I don?t even want to think about all the development planned for the Delaware river waterfront, that is going absolutely nowhere. It?s just my opinion of course, but I think Boston has it a lot better than most cities, in terms of what gets done. We have sunken highways all through the city that would be perfect for a project like Columbus Center or a Prudential Center, but it?s something that isn?t even considered here.

It?d be great if ACC is built, and if TD Commerce decides to move here, maybe it will, but I think density is so much more important than a few tall towers. Boston has so much density, and the reason that Stellarfun never really noticed some of our taller structures may be because there is a definite lack of density here that would give everything more prominence. And Philly is a sprawling mess, outside of Center City. I went to this conference in Boston last week, for environmental design and socio-economic development, and there is a lot of community activism in Boston that you don?t really find in Philly. These aren?t NIMBYs either, these are people who want development and want to build a strong community. We have a couple neighborhoods like that here, like Northern Liberties and Fishtown (artist communities), but you really don?t find it anywhere else. And I can attest to the mention of the vast wasteland of ghetto directly outside the business district.
Click to expand...

The Comcast Tower is an amazing skyscraper. Truly iconic. This tower is one of the best built over the last 25 years in the US. Not sure if many on this site have seen it, but it is gorgeous!!
Here are a few pics from photobucket. Would have loved to seen this built in Boston.
PhillySkylinewithComcastTower.jpg

P1000087.jpg

P1000092.jpg
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

agreed. it manages to do a lot with a little. its minor details make it an extremely beautiful skyscraper
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The glass is stunning and it definitely has presence, but something about its form leaves me cold. I think a bit more relief would've helped.
 
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Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I swear, every picture i see of it in the skyline -- i think it's a rendering. Something about it just makes it look like a rendering...
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

castevens said:
I swear, every picture i see of it in the skyline -- i think it's a rendering. Something about it just makes it look like a rendering...
Click to expand...

I guess it's just one of those towers that do look as good as the renderings.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I remember reading something about part of the building was supposed to be stone. Does anyone know what that was and/or have any renderings of that?
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The way this tower reflects it's surroundings, from the colors in the sky to buildings, it is one of a kind. Hope no one minds, since this is a thread about TNP, but I can't resist.
The best shots of this building are ones when the sky is varied in color.
Pics from photobucket
sexyphillyskyline2.jpg

comcast_uc2773.jpg

cc8.jpg
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

That really is a beautiful building. castevens, I agree with you, especially in that first photo that Cojapo posted. It's simplistic yet stunning. There is little that I can see that could be improved on with that building.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The first picture IS a rendering....
 
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