100 Pier 4 | 136-146 Northern Avenue | Seaport

Re: Pier 4

There is a big difference between want and need. If you put nice things in the Seaport, people want to go there. Nothing that gets put here is going to be something people need to go to.
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One reason why City Hall will never be in the Seaport.
 
Re: Pier 4

@seamus, et al re: Walking
If you can't walk you could: take the Silver Line, take one of the multiple conventional bus routes, take a cab, take your car, take a bike, if you're disabled you can take The Ride, etc, etc, ad naseum. The idea that this area is either A) impossible to get to or B) a transportation wasteland is just flat out ridiculous.
 
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Re: Pier 4

SeamusMcFly said:
You folks and your I can walk anywhere mentality are being very narrow minded.

You can walk it, I can walk it and do all the time. Not everyone is like you, nor should they be expected to be.

Try to think from a broader scope, and you may realize how ridiculous your sentiments and potentially insulting they are to many. Not just the fat American public.

Do you also feel that the Americans with Disabilities Act should be retracted? Maybe move the handicapped parking spots to the back of the parking lot? (After all who needs the exercise more, and they're never going to get better putting their spots at the front of the building.)

I'm no bleeding heart, but I also know that just cause I do it everyday, doesn't mean someone else wants to.

There is a big difference between want and need. If you put nice things in the Seaport, people want to go there. Nothing that gets put here is going to be something people need to go to.
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Do people need to go to Faneuil Hall? Comparing today's Faneuil Hall to Pier 4's potential is what kicked-off this debate.
 
Re: Pier 4

Agreed, anyone (the same person over and over again) who says it's difficult or impossible to get to is out they minds.

It's very easy to get to, and well served by everything you mentioned.

My point is that the brush off of public transportation being necessary for the survival or success of an area is plain silly. 0.7 miles is too far to walk? or 1.1 mile? In general, yes it is. If someone can't easily get somewhere in a quick manner, they'll go someplace easier. Unless there is something super spectacular enticing them to go a specific place, they may make the trip regardless of the transport.

Public transportation is the first key to the success of any new venture in the City. Location is usually the key factor, but the good locations are taken (and well served by public transport), so if you want a new hot spot, you better be able to get there. Without scuffing your dancing shoes on the pavement as well. Or getting your new suede Ugg's, or whatever crap is in style, wet in the rain as you cross over the Summer Street or Congress Street bridge. Moakley as well.
 
Re: Pier 4

Accessibility is an obvious factor to an areas success, for sure. But if the location is truly worth going to for a specific demographic, those people will get there. They will take a cab, take the Silver Line, take a car, or walk.

I mentioned NYC before, because although the Subway is extremely accessible to most areas, avenues are so expansive that walking is usually required. But a better comparison would be DC, where areas like Georgetown are wildly successful but yet a 25 min walk from the Metro. The demographic that wants to shop/eat in Georgetown has no issue taking a cab from Foggy Bottom or wherever the closest Metro stop is. I think we will see the same thing in the Seaport - The target Demo will get there because they decided it is worth it (views, trendiness, they work there, restaurants, whatever it may be).
 
Re: Pier 4

There's a huge difference between "it's physically possible to get somewhere" and "it's quick, convenient and easy to get somewhere". I think that's the crux of this argument, and a huge reason for most investment in transportation.

Georgetown was developed 250 years ago, before Washington existed, let alone had a subway. What's more, in terms of being a destination, it's a niche shopping district at most - and doesn't face much competition in terms of atmosphere from other parts of the region, by virtue of its age and style, and doesn't really have to compete with other cities (because how often do people go elsewhere to shop?) By contrast, the Seaport is banking on growing new institutions (like the Convention Center, "innovation" hubs, etc.) that are going to need that sort of connectivity to compete, both with other parts of Boston, and other cities.
 
Re: Pier 4

czsz said:
There's a huge difference between "it's physically possible to get somewhere" and "it's quick, convenient and easy to get somewhere". I think that's the crux of this argument, and a huge reason for most investment in transportation.

Georgetown was developed 250 years ago, before Washington existed, let alone had a subway. What's more, in terms of being a destination, it's a niche shopping district at most - and doesn't face much competition in terms of atmosphere from other parts of the region, by virtue of its age and style, and doesn't really have to compete with other cities (because how often do people go elsewhere to shop?) By contrast, the Seaport is banking on growing new institutions (like the Convention Center, "innovation" hubs, etc.) that are going to need that sort of connectivity to compete, both with other parts of Boston, and other cities.
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In regards to the district as a whole, while overemphasized, I understand your point and its a valid one. But I still do not think it applies to the entertainment aspect of the district specifically with Pier 4. The draw is there, people will go in hordes.
 
Re: Pier 4

I don't get the Faneuil Hall comparison at all. Faneuil's arguably the busiest pedestrian area in the city. Its big tourist draw is the plethora of history immediately within and adjacent to the area, combined with the menagerie of eateries. It's also at the junction of three out of four rapid transit lines (State/GovtCenter/Haymarket/Aquarium). Unless you just mean the linear retail/restaurant layout of the new Pier 4 plans, I don't see it ever becoming similar to the Faneuil area.
 
Re: Pier 4

If only there was some kind of surface bus, some kind of low numbered route which ALSO served south station and the entire seaport. Maybe it could continue to the north end too!

If only.

Or some kind of vehicle for hire service. Maybe a car you could hail? Or a bike you could rent? Or a ferry you could call for?

If only.

The true diamond would be an underground rapid transit line running every 5 minutes or less. Some kind of electric vehicle system running in dedicated tunnels.

If only.
 
Re: Pier 4

czsz said:
There's a huge difference between "it's physically possible to get somewhere" and "it's quick, convenient and easy to get somewhere". I think that's the crux of this argument, and a huge reason for most investment in transportation.

Georgetown was developed 250 years ago, before Washington existed, let alone had a subway. What's more, in terms of being a destination, it's a niche shopping district at most - and doesn't face much competition in terms of atmosphere from other parts of the region, by virtue of its age and style, and doesn't really have to compete with other cities (because how often do people go elsewhere to shop?) By contrast, the Seaport is banking on growing new institutions (like the Convention Center, "innovation" hubs, etc.) that are going to need that sort of connectivity to compete, both with other parts of Boston, and other cities.
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So the waterfront bars/dining, chic shopping and trendy restaurants were there 250 years ago? The current area as we see it today is there for a reason. Yes its anecdotal, so I don't want to focus on Georgetown, but my point is that if the perceived attraction is there, which in the Seaport's case it is, a certain demographic will choose to go and not select an area that is more accessible to public transportation -- because the area in question is unique, has an appeal, and is what this demographic is seeking at a particular point in time.

Liberty Warf is the primary example.. Pier 4 will do just fine.

My Faneuil Hall comparisons were strictly related to how it draws a crowd and the vibrancy that the area has -- Again, a demographic that has decided to go there based on the unique attraction that the area draws.
 
Re: Pier 4

I'll say it again: it isn't walking distance from South Station that's the issue, it is the lack of broader connectivity with the transit network outside of the Red Line. Anywhere on the Seaport is 2 transfers from the GL and OL and 3 transfers from the BL.

I don't understand why, when they cancelled SL Phase 3, they didn't at least still plan to excavate a portal so that SL surface routes from Chinatown could continue into South Station and towards the Seaport?
 
Re: Pier 4

Seaport District: Will never be like Fannuel Hall.

The only people that will gravite towards the Seaport are Business professionals, Politicans, The Whos who of Boston & other cities. Basically the area will be cater towards the Rich, Upperclass society. The Seaport will have great very expensive restaurants on the waterfront and their will be an attraction especially when their are hot women and weathly men always eating their.

If the city wanted to make the Seaport a destination spot then they would have to put in a Hard-rail.
Aquarium--Blue Line
Fanneul Hall--Orange Line

Seaport--Has a BUS

So how can the Seaport District be planned for the Everyday Joe? When the entire Transit is for a 2nd and 3rd rate development location? Not a destination spot.
 
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Re: Pier 4

Tell that to all the <30 yuppies I know in Southie that go to Whiskey Priest, ABG, and Jerry Remy's weekly and see shows at BOA all summer.

I also find it very easy to get on the T in Somerville and get off the Silver line in 30 minutes to get a nice bowl of chowder on the legal deck.
 
Re: Pier 4

underground said:
Agreed, but you're presupposing it takes a long time to get to the Seaport, and that's just flat out not true.
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That's all relative. Depends on what you are going for, where your coming from, and if you have a desire to use public transport.

As stated by others, the multiple changes from line to line will turn some people off if they are going for a party, bar, club atmosphere.

Myself personally, I will walk or use public transport, and almost never take a cab unless work is paying for it, or I have my wife with me in tall shoes. Others will always take a cab. I refuse to drive in the city if it can be avoided at all costs. I will drive to Southie now because it's easy, and I can park for free at after work or on weekends if no one ganked the company spots.

Everything is relative.

Then again, I have been arguing both sides of this conversation. I think the Seaport is very easy to get to, and has plenty of mass transit coverage. But, I have also argued the importance of said mass transit against those who say that those who won't walk 1.1 miles are being lazy, and are a terrible indicator of our crumbling society.
 
Re: Pier 4

SeamusMcFly said:
. But, I have also argued the importance of said mass transit against those who say that those who won't walk 1.1 miles are being lazy, and are a terrible indicator of our crumbling society.
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So in theory our society should suck it up and walk 1.1 Miles each time to get to the Seaport district in Dec, Jan, Feb on cold & snow days to get to the Retail outlet. Why would I do that when I get dropped off at the Backbay through the Green or orange lines to the Copley mall.

I think the only argument is our city plans on building up Seaport without the proper Transit access. Its not about being lazy. Its about accessiblity for the people.


For example (did you ever wonder why Medford Square was not like Davis Square? No accessible Hard-rail coming into the square.
Both Squares have the same Bones. Tufts, similar circled structures. For god sake Paul Revere rode down Medford Square.......

MBTA Lines are very crucial into playing their part for a very successful development.

Bottom-line you can't change peoples habits. We have lazy people in our society and we have very active people in our society. Just because people won't walk to the Seaport doesn't make them lazy.
 
Re: Pier 4

YOU DONT HAVE TO WALK 1.1 miles. You have to walk just as far as you do from Copley to the Pru entrace as you do from SLW to Liberty wharf, probably longer. Now if you want to do indoor shopping in the winter, then the seaport isn't it. Personally I will take the silver line to the seaport over a heavy rail to the Gap.
 
Re: Pier 4

choo said:
Tell that to all the <30 yuppies I know in Southie that go to Whiskey Priest, ABG, and Jerry Remy's weekly and see shows at BOA all summer.

I also find it very easy to get on the T in Somerville and get off the Silver line in 30 minutes to get a nice bowl of chowder on the legal deck.
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Well most of Southie has inconvenient transportation to anywhere unless you live near Andrew or Broadway. It's comparatively faster to get to the Seaport from Southie than it is to get to Prudential yes?
 
Re: Pier 4

ParkerChris said:
Liberty Warf is the primary example.. Pier 4 will do just fine.
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Exactly. I feel like the argument is over. A group of posters keep lamenting that the area will never be successful because they don't like BRT. But that flies in the face of the developments that keep getting built, and filled.
Fallon sells Park Lane for $200M ... Liberty Wharf is constantly packed ... Vertex builds their HQ ... Several more apartment buildings break ground ... commercial rents rival the financial district ... tenants move in from the FD and Kendall Sq ...

Could The Seaport have been planned better from an urban planning POV? Yes. Could it have been designed better from an architectural POV? Absolutely. Would it have been preferable to continue the SL tunnel down Washington St? Definitely.
But I can't fathom why we're arguing whether or not the Seaport will be a desirable neighborhood when everything that's been built there has filled up and generated high rents.
 
Re: Pier 4

Everyone also seems to be forgetting the silver line was designed to be converted to light rail when the crtical mass demands it. If they can figure out how to bridge the dewey square tunnel they can also connect it to the summer st concourse, which will give it orange and green line access. It wouldn't even have to be rail, a contnuation of the pedestrian concourse would suffice.
 
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