2016 Presidential Election (General Election)

[DZH22]

I'm against your xenophobia, not because of your Jewish background.

Sing kubaya all you want then, while one group is "unintentionally" wiped out. At least your hands are clean. How could you know that you wouldn't be able to save both the sharks and the dolphins by placing them in the same pool of water?

 

[DZH22]

I'm against your xenophobia....

I'd trade you for Noah's Ark. I'm *so sorry* that I don't think a second holocaust type event would be a positive development for the Jewish people.

Don't worry though, if you get what you want (Hillary), we'll all die from a Russian made nuclear warhead well before "xenophobia" has any bearing on the future of this country. At that point, what's the difference?

What I won't stand for is being bullied by the majority. Maybe you think you are taking the high road, but you are the 1.3 billion trying to bully the 15 million. 1300 million to 15 million. I am looking out for the interests of a small, endangered population, while you're trying to ram your beliefs down my throat as if we're on even footing. You're a natural bully, trying to cloak yourself in something else.

 

[KentXie]

DZH, not surprisingly, my sarcasm went over your head. This is my fault, I edited too late when I added the note about the sarcasm.

My point is, I'm not putting the needs of one people above other people. The concerns of the Jewish people is the same as the concerns of the Native Americans and the concerns of an Asian. Why should we solve one problem at the expense of another?

Look, like I said, I don't understand how your restriction of immigration of a certain group or groups of people would be of any benefit to you. Think. How do you think Muslim Americans feel if they found out that, because of the Jewish people, people of their religious background are not allowed to come into the US. You think they will be less hateful? Let's flip it the other way. How would you feel if Christians decided that Jewish people should not be allowed to immigrate to the US? You think that will solve the hate? No, hate begets hate. You excluding people will end up making those who are impacted by it hate you more, not less. If you want to resolve the problem, you have to have an open dialogue. Sometimes, you might have to force an open dialogue. For example, Black Americans have for their entire history in the US, been treated less than Whites. Why does it only seem like we are hearing it now? Because nobody was willing to listen to their problem or willing to understand their problems. They had to force an open dialogue. They have done it during the Civil Rights movement. They are doing it now with BLM. Trust me, if you started a JLM movement, I would wholeheartedly support your movement to open up a dialogue about the unwarranted hate that Jewish people receive. This is what makes permanent perception changes. Through understanding, not hate.

 

[KentXie]

I'd trade you for Noah's Ark. I'm *so sorry* that I don't think a second holocaust type event would be a positive development for the Jewish people.

Don't worry though, if you get what you want (Hillary), we'll all die from a Russian made nuclear warhead well before "xenophobia" has any bearing on the future of this country. At that point, what's the difference?

What I won't stand for is being bullied by the majority. Maybe you think you are taking the high road, but you are the 1.3 billion trying to bully the 15 million. 1300 million to 15 million. I am looking out for the interests of a small, endangered population, while you're trying to ram your beliefs down my throat as if we're on even footing. You're a natural bully, trying to cloak yourself in something else.

Yes I am the 1.3 billion people. Yes because I'm Chinese American and having the word Chinese in my background automatically lumps me in with the 1.3 billion Chinese people in China /sarcasm.

FYI, I'm not the 1.3 billion people from China. I'm the 4.7 million Chinese Americans who live in the United States. Get that straight.

 

[KentXie]

BTW, the 1.3 billion people in China has no political power in the US. They don't vote on US policies so you can give that argument a rest.

 

[DZH22]

DZH, not surprisingly, my sarcasm went over your head. This is my fault, I edited too late when I added the note about the sarcasm.

My point is, I'm not putting the needs of one people above other people. The concerns of the Jewish people is the same as the concerns of the Native Americans and the concerns of an Asian. Why should we solve one problem at the expense of another?

Look, like I said, I don't understand how your restriction of immigration of a certain group or groups of people would be of any benefit to you. Think. How do you think Muslim Americans feel if they found out that, because of the Jewish people, people of their religious background are not allowed to come into the US. You think they will be less hateful? Let's flip it the other way. How would you feel if Christians decided that Jewish people should not be allowed to immigrate to the US? You think that will solve the hate? No, hate begets hate. You excluding people will end up making those who are impacted by it hate you more, not less. If you want to resolve the problem, you have to have an open dialogue. Sometimes, you might have to force an open dialogue. For example, Black Americans have for their entire history in the US, been treated less than Whites. Why does it only seem like we are hearing it now? Because nobody were willing to listen to their problem or willing to understand their problem. They had to force an open dialogue. They have done it during the Civil Rights movement. They are doing it now with BLM. Trust me, if you started a JLM movement, I would wholeheartedly support your movement to open up a dialogue about the unwarranted hate that Jewish people receive. This is what makes permanent perception changes. Through understanding, not hate.

I will admit to going overboard with my attacks. But the words bigot, xenophobe, etc send me into a rage. I am leery of immigration because of the way it is playing out. (Jews fleeing Europe) Self preservation has to come first. Nobody spoke up for Jews last time around (original Holocaust), and nobody is speaking up for them now. (see Obama, UN, college aged millennials) They are at risk, like an endangered species, and I am part of that species.

Think of it on a more family level. I give you 2 options. Either fire a torpedo at a boat with your entire family on it, or fire it at a cruise ship with 2000 strangers. There is no other option. Are you saving your smaller family or the larger amount of strangers? I am a family first kind of guy. Would you be a traitor to your own family in order to save a bunch of people you don't know? I would not. Maybe that makes me a more cruel, brutal person than you, but I put my family first.

 

[DZH22]

BTW, the 1.3 billion people in China has no political power in the US. They don't vote on US policies so you can give that argument a rest.

I'm not talking about political power. I'm talking about being completely eliminated from the planet. There was a real push for that in the 1940's. Most people who lived through that time are dead, and the new generation doesn't seem to have learned the old lessons.

 

[KentXie]

I will admit to going overboard with my attacks. But the words bigot, xenophobe, etc send me into a rage. I am leery of immigration because of the way it is playing out. (Jews fleeing Europe) Self preservation has to come first. Nobody spoke up for Jews last time around (original Holocaust), and nobody is speaking up for them now. (see Obama, UN, college aged millennials) They are at risk, like an endangered species, and I am part of that species.

Think of it on a more family level. I give you 2 options. Either fire a torpedo at a boat with your entire family on it, or fire it at a cruise ship with 2000 strangers. There is no other option. Are you saving your smaller family or the larger amount of strangers? I am a family first kind of guy. Would you be a traitor to your own family in order to save a bunch of people you don't know? I would not. Maybe that makes me a more cruel, brutal person than you, but I put my family first.

There are only two options (Hillary and Trump, I'm assuming this is what your analogy is referring to) but that doesn't mean you can't influence the policies of the person in power. Obama didn't start BLM. The linchpin is really the Trayvon Martin shooting which due to today's technology and the ability to spread information fast, allowed Black Americans to quickly coalesce together and push back. Now, because of this, there have been movements to retrain police officers, use body cameras, etc. Obama didn't do any of that. He gave his blessings but he did not enact a law to force any of this change.

All I'm saying is, out of the two candidates, which of them is more likely to give a blessing on any movements (Jewish, Black, Asian, Mexican, Women etc.) that exposes the hate and inequality that permeates in the US. One who has been moving to try to unite people or one who has been using hate and fear to drive his campaign?

 

[KentXie]

I'm not talking about political power. I'm talking about being completely eliminated from the planet. There was a real push for that in the 1940's. Most people who lived through that time are dead, and the new generation doesn't seem to have learned the old lessons.

Who, might I ask, are pushing for the elimination of Israel? Neither candidates have said that they are not willing to defend Israel against attacks. Hillary has questioned the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank but saying that means Hillary is willing to let Israel go it alone against their enemy is a huge stretch; or is this fear rooted in the Tehran deal? Trump saying that he is not willing to defend his allies in Europe if they don't pay up sounds like a more risky choice.

 

[DZH22]

There are only two options (Hillary and Trump, I'm assuming this is what your analogy is referring to....

Believe it or not, the analogy was more literal. Back against the wall, are you siding with your family or with a much greater amount of strangers?

The linchpin is really the Trayvon Martin shooting which due to today's technology and the ability to spread information fast, allowed Black Americans to quickly coalesce together and push back.

This case is literally why I stopped being a Democrat. It had nothing to do with whether or not I liked the people involved. (I liked neither of them, at all) It had everything to do with the way the media presented it to me. When I first heard about it I was OUTRAGED. I literally lost my mind and was cursing like, how could this miscarriage of justice be?

Now, I'm not going to get into the specifics of the case (which I researched the hell out of) but for me, it was the cathartic moment when I pulled back the curtain and saw how manipulative the media could be. (and not JUST Fox News!) I am only going to harp on 1 point. You can believe or not believe what you want, but there is 1 thing that was perpetuated by CNN, and then literally 6 months to a year later continued to be perpetuated by talking heads like Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert, that I just turned on the Dems. What I couldn't get past is that they continued to show a picture of Trayvon when he was 12. Even when we found out that he was a strong/jacked, 17 year old with MMA experience and a documented mean streak, they continued to show pictures of him as a young child. It's the same picture that led to my initial outrage. It fed the narrative that big, bad Zimmerman shot a little kid in cold blood. I just couldn't get passed it. 12 isn't 17. 12 isn't even CLOSE to 17 considering puberty comes in between. His 17 year old pictures didn't fit the narrative, but it shouldn't have been about a narrative, it should have just been focused on the truth. It all seemed very deceptive to me, and before that I was under some idiotic impression that the left-wing media wouldn't lie to me, while the right-wing media was full of shit. That was when I discovered they were both full of shit. 12 isn't 17, it was an unfair portrayal, and it shook my faith in the Democratic party. If they continue to perpetuate that false narrative, what else would they lie to me about?

 

[KentXie]

Believe it or not, the analogy was more literal. Back against the wall, are you siding with your family or with a much greater amount of strangers?



This case is literally why I stopped being a Democrat. It had nothing to do with whether or not I liked the people involved. (I liked neither of them, at all) It had everything to do with the way the media presented it to me. When I first heard about it I was OUTRAGED. I literally lost my mind and was cursing like, how could this miscarriage of justice be?

Now, I'm not going to get into the specifics of the case (which I researched the hell out of) but for me, it was the cathartic moment when I pulled back the curtain and saw how manipulative the media could be. (and not JUST Fox News!) I am only going to harp on 1 point. You can believe or not believe what you want, but there is 1 thing that was perpetuated by CNN, and then literally 6 months to a year later continued to be perpetuated by talking heads like Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert, that I just turned on the Dems. What I couldn't get past is that they continued to show a picture of Trayvon when he was 12. Even when we found out that he was a strong/jacked, 17 year old with MMA experience and a documented mean streak, they continued to show pictures of him as a young child. It's the same picture that led to my initial outrage. It fed the narrative that big, bad Zimmerman shot a little kid in cold blood. I just couldn't get passed it. 12 isn't 17. 12 isn't even CLOSE to 17 considering puberty comes in between. His 17 year old pictures didn't fit the narrative, but it shouldn't have been about a narrative, it should have just been focused on the truth. It all seemed very deceptive to me, and before that I was under some idiotic impression that the left-wing media wouldn't lie to me, while the right-wing media was full of shit. That was when I discovered they were both full of shit. 12 isn't 17, it was an unfair portrayal, and it shook my faith in the Democratic party. If they continue to perpetuate that false narrative, what else would they lie to me about?

There is bias in media. That I get. But regardless of whether Trayvon Martin was jacked or not, this is not the issue.

The issue is the institutionalize racism that exist, the assumption that Trayvon Martin looks like criminal because he is black and wearing a hoodie. The shooting should have never occurred. Trayvon Martin on that night did nothing wrong prior to the incident that should have warranted Zimmerman from stalking him and instigating the fatal shooting. The media definitely blew it up but the problem of institutionalize racism is still there whether or not Travyon Martin is portrayed as a 12 year old or a 17 year old.

But I agree, both sides lies about certain things but I see Trump as more dangerous than any Republican and Democrat candidates, and no, I won't even categorize Trump as a Republican because he is not. He's a fascist and his alt-right supporters are not Republicans either.

 

[DZH22]

There is bias in media. That I get. But regardless of whether Trayvon Martin was jacked or not, this is not the issue.

The issue is the institutionalize racism that exist, the assumption that Trayvon Martin looks like criminal because he is black and wearing a hoodie. The shooting should have never occurred. Trayvon Martin on that night did nothing wrong prior to the incident that should have warranted Zimmerman from stalking him and instigating the fatal shooting. The media definitely blew it up but the problem of institutionalize racism is still there whether or not Travyon Martin is portrayed as a 12 year old or a 17 year old.

Actually there are a couple key fallacies to the case. One is that the 911 operator told George to stay in the car, and he disobeyed her. That never happened. I listened to the entire call. He was already out of the car. She asked if he (Zimmerman) was following him (Martin), Zimmerman said yes, the 911 operator said you don't need to do that, and Zimmerman said OK.

Zimmerman was a creep for sure, and has continued to prove that. Zimmerman probably should not have followed Trayvon like he did. However, Zimmerman also didn't pull out the gun until Trayvon was on top of him smashing the back of his head into the pavement. It was literally self-defense for his life. It was a tragic situation, but it was self-defense and he was acquitted in a court of law. By the way, I'm leaving out an absolute ton of stuff here. The whole point is that the media made me see what they wanted me to see (young kid as a victim) and it was the first time I truly recognized the bias as just that, bias.

EDIT: One other thing is the media made a big point about calling him a "White" Hispanic. One more sneaky way they are responsible for the deterioration of race relations in this country.

 

[DZH22]

The media definitely blew it up but the problem of institutionalize racism is still there whether or not Travyon Martin is portrayed as a 12 year old or a 17 year old.

Yes racism certainly does exist and it certainly is a problem.

The issue with 12 vs 17 isn't about that though. What it's about is that a 17 year old with MMA experience can physically overpower a grown man. A 12 year old boy can't. (unless he's gigantic, not the case here) Basically, it put it into people's heads that there was no way that Zimmerman could have been on the losing side of a fight. That isn't true. Zimmerman was not a particularly tough guy. Faux tough. Not actual tough. He ran into actual tough. That's the problem with 12 vs 17. Look at the 12 year old picture only and you would never believe that kid could have been winning the tussle.

It would be like if we got in a fist fight, and then the media showed a picture of you today but a picture of me in 6th grade. (I'm 34) Then everybody thinks you got in a fight with a 6th grader. That isn't fair.

 

[George_Apley]

 

[TheRifleman]

Zimmerman should have gone to jail for Manslaughter or possible 1st degree murder which would be up to the jury.
This is the basic premise of the case an unarmed 17 year old kid walking home from buying a pack of skittles only to feel like he was threatened bye a random stranger who trayvon probably feared for his life.

Zimmerman should be in jail for manslaughter and intent of personally starting a situation that cost someone his life.

Zimmerman was like walking the streets of Florida like a vigilante.
Maybe these areas are that bad. The cops in Detroit actually told local citizens to arm themselves because the response time is just to slow due to lack of resources

 

[DZH22]

Zimmerman was like walking the streets of Florida like a vigilante.

Yes, he was. He is absolutely guilty of being an idiot.

Zimmerman should be in jail for manslaughter and intent of personally starting a situation that cost someone his life.

Unfortunately for everybody, it turned into self defense when his head split open due to being smashed into concrete. I don't know what kind of beating it would take to deliver these wounds, but I can understand that he legitimately feared for his life at that moment in time when he pulled the trigger. It would have been easier (as in, nobody ever would have heard about this case) if Zimmerman had just been guilty to begin with.

https://img.rt.com/files/news/1f/5e/70/00/trayvon-martin-zimmerman-trial.si.jpg
(unfortunately I can't figure out how to embed from this other site)

 

[bolehboleh]

Let me try something. Squirrel beach totem rough. When touch quite for twelve is not. Usual from last youth why get ten. How vent right towards send word hats. And for forward got denim last real. Turtle front not get same year.

I disagree. Television curtains cub box but eleven car noise man. Ahoy! Sign hammer man smith.

 

[bolehboleh]

I'm curious as to whether or not you voted for Romney (for president).

I voted for Obama both times. I think Romney was capable and competent to be president (despite ideological differences I have with him), but I believe(d) that our country needs to go in a more "progressive" direction. However, I do remember the Romney years in Mass. It seemed like he spent his first 2 years governing and his last two campaigning. He was too much of a chameleon for me, so I actually voted for Ron Paul in the 2012 primary (thanks to our open primary )

Also, I'll never forget the post 9/11 days where anyone who dared to question the wars was called "unpatriotic" or worse. That attitude came mostly from the right. I voted for John Mccain in the 2000 primary (first primary I was old enough to vote in) and seeing him hug George Bush in 2004 represented everything I hated about politics and especially the Republican party.

I see a guy like Charlie Baker and I might even vote for him next election. But if he ever goes on a national ticket, I'd have to see how much he sells out to the national GOP or Tea Party

 

[tysmith95]

http://www.vox.com/polyarchy/2016/9/30/13121346/maine-ranked-choice-voting

Heard this on NPR the other day. One proposal with a good chance of being enacted in Maine is ranked choice voting. After third party candidates allowed their wonderful governor get elected this is seen as a reaction to that. It would be amazing if this were to catch on nationally. If it caught on nationally then third party candidates, and moderates like Baker, would actually have a chance in presidential elections. I think the current primary system allows for more polarization than is apparent with the average voter. The average voter currently sits somewhere in-between the modern day democratic and republican parties. Really for anyone annoyed with the current two party system of government (which I believe is the majority of people) should support measures like this. It may end the two party system across America.

If people are confused by a system like ranked choice voting then they shouldn't vote. It's actually fairly simple.

 

[Justin7]

DZH22 is making valid arguments that I think are worth discussing ... let's not group him in with crazy far right fridge posters in this thread.

Whoops.

I voted for Obama both times. I think Romney was a capable and competent to be president (despite ideological differences I have with him), but I believe(d) that our country needs to go in a more "progressive" direction. However, I do remember the Romney years in Mass. It seemed like he spent his first 2 years governing and his last two campaigning. He was too much of a chameleon for me, so I actually voted for Ron Paul in the 2012 primary (thanks to our open primary )

Also, I'll never forget the post 9/11 days where anyone who dared to question the wars was called "unpatriotic" or worse. That attitude came mostly from the right. I voted for John Mccain in the 2000 primary (first primary I was old enough to vote in) and seeing him hug George Bush in 2004 represented everything I hated about politics and especially the Republican party.

I see a guy like Charlie Baker and I might even vote for him next election. But if he ever goes on a national ticket, I'd have to see how much he sells out to the national GOP or Tea Party

Thanks. Your earlier quote about Baker reminded me (obviously) of Mitt. There's always the question as to whether Mitt was far right and modulating his views for MA, or if he was a centrist who went off the rails in order to win the national primary. Likely somewhere in the middle.

(Though to be clear, I voted against him at the state level as well.)