General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I said they kept the underground part of the T running through the blizzard of 78. And I think also the Red Line over the Longfellow. Not the outlying Green Line branches.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

^^ Right. The question I have is what keeps them from running underground shuttle service where they can. (Alewife–Kendall, Park–Andrew, North Station–Tufts Medical Center, North Station–Kenmore, Bowdoin–Aquarium/Maverick, depending on if they want to risk going under the harbor)

The rationale for doing this is that it's better to have some movement in the system rather than none, better to have a less-than-ideal method of transport for the cities of Boston and Cambridge than to have none.

I can think of a few issues:

1) cost: self-explanatory; the T probably wouldn't make much revenue at all from this, especially with the busses out

2) doesn't discourage folks from going out (folks who don't need to be going out), which has all sorts of problematic ripple effects

3) turning trains: there's a crossover at Kendall, so Alewife–Kendall would be fine, but everything else is a little tricky. From what I can see, turning at Kenmore would involve reversing on to the loop, and then reversing again off at the other side. There are no X's at Tufts Medical Center, so trains would either have to surface to cross at BBY, or turn at Chinatown instead. (Which would mean that the OL shuttle would parallel the GL for its entire length.) No crosses at Andrew, so it's either terminate at Broadway, or run single tracked to Andrew. (Which could also be done with Tufts, but I digress.) There are no crosses between Gov't Center and Maverick, so unless the T wants to risk running the shuttles under the Harbor (see below), a BL shuttle is pretty much pointless. (I can't see a Bowdoin-GC bouncer making sense.) One thing they could conceivably do is run GL shuttles from Symphony to North Station, since there are X's both at Symphony and Pru.

4) external power supply: from what I know, power for subway trains is generated off-site and is transferred to the subway. What if those connections are damaged? Do we end up with stranded trains, compounding the difficulties already faced by the City? (And if a BL train got stranded under the harbor... oy.)

It seems to me that the intention of The Powers That Be with this shutdown is to encourage employers to give employees the day off. I'm not sure this is the most effective way to do that, but it may be the only tool available to them at this time.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

They usually turn Kenmore trains at Blandford, but this is a weird scenario you posit.

Honestly why not just run a single track shuttle at those service levels? Much easier.

But I don't blame them for shutting down. Too much to go wrong. Even underground, stuff has been catching fire in cold weather... Just what BFD needs.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

datadyne007 said:
Rush hour should not be occurring tomorrow at all because non-essential people should not be on the roads. The actual "blizzard" part of the storm should be happening from 2-5.
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Too bad for the immigrants and poors who have to get to work anyways! Maybe they'll self-deport once they see what pussies for closing up shop. Because it's going to snow. 14 hours from now.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The problem is that when we hit the real blizzard portion of the storm the snow's going to start piling up faster than the trains can clear it. They're talking 3"-4" per hour if Boston gets slammed with one of those ultra-heavy bands. If a foot or two were spread around over several more hours the trains would push the snow away fast enough or they'd be able to cram in some non-revenue snow pushing trains in between runs. You'd see a whole parade of empty trolleys coming down the D to keep the tracks clear and scrape ice off the overhead. But since the PM volume's going to be light enough and conditions complicated enough for only off-peak headways, 15-20 minutes without a train can be the equivalent of an inch or two's extra accumulation. Way, way more than that on commuter rail. Things start falling apart in a hurry at that rate, third rail starts getting buried, and you have to start thinking about probability of treacherous rescue situations popping up on Blue or the D in hard-to-access areas.


That said, it's a little weak that they can't keep Red Alewife-JFK, Green Blandford or Fenway-North Station and Northeastern-North Station, Blue Logan-Bowdoin, Orange Sullivan-Ruggles, and Silver SS-SLW going till 11:00pm. All of those routes stray the minimum-most amount above-ground and keep enough yard access to run skeletal regular service on 15-20 min. headways. Green has North Station yard and underground pocket storage at Brattle Loop, Kenmore Loop, and Boylston siding and can actually run pretty dense service with the car supply that affords. Red has Alewife yard and some protection at JFK from the Columbia Jct. underpasses, and can keep 1 Cabot Yard lead clear by running a plow train back and forth. Longfellow really wouldn't be a problem, and never has been even in epic events like '78. Blue has Bowdoin yard and can keep 1 non-revenue track to Orient Heights yard clear with a plow train. Orange is protected to Sullivan by I-93 overhead and most of the way to Ruggles crossovers by the SW Corridor tunnel, and can keep 1 non-revenue lead to Wellington yard clear with a plow train. Silver has full electric storage at both ends, and might even be able to continue SL1 service to Logan through the tunnels until conditions get really hairy. That keeps downtown and the major transfers all navigable for people still in safe walking distance, preserves East Boston and some degree of Charlestown and Southie access to downtown, keeps Logan/SS/NS/BBY stranded passengers accessible to climate-controlled stations and a few hotel choices, keeps the hospitals and City Hall accessible, and preserves access to transit stations from 93 and Pike (which will be by far the best-plowed roads in town with no issues in the tunnels). I think they've at least got a public service obligation to strive for that much basic functionality. Especially with the hospitals. City streets might be literally inaccessible tonight to anybody except the cross-country skiers.

Any surface-running beyond that, and any commuter rail whatsoever is going to be foolhardy in these conditions. No question. I just think they're doing a real disservice being that gun-shy about the tunnels with easy yard capacity.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

For the record, I have no problem with what the T is doing. I know it never happens, but what if a train brakes down? What if the wind is blowing and going down the entrance to subway stairs faster than the MBTA can clear them? What if emergency crews can't get to a stranded train on the Commuter rail.

Half of the problems come from people getting trapped when they go in and can't go on the way out. The T shutting down makes people stay close and in, which may be a PITA for some, but it is by far the safest and quickest option for all. By Sunday, the T will be running at normal service. The people saying this as overkill are the same people that would yell, "why did the T keep running and put people in these potentially deadly situations?!" the moment something went wrong.

Everyone sit back, relax and play the weather channel drinking games. I have enough deli meats to get to Monday, and enough vodka to get to memorial day.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

choo said:
For the record, I have no problem with what the T is doing. I know it never happens, but what if a train brakes down? What if the wind is blowing and going down the entrance to subway stairs faster than the MBTA can clear them? What if emergency crews can't get to a stranded train on the Commuter rail.

Half of the problems come from people getting trapped when they go in and can't go on the way out. The T shutting down makes people stay close and in, which may be a PITA for some, but it is by far the safest and quickest option for all. By Sunday, the T will be running at normal service. The people saying this as overkill are the same people that would yell, "why did the T keep running and put people in these potentially deadly situations?!" the moment something went wrong.

Everyone sit back, relax and play the weather channel drinking games. I have enough deli meats to get to Monday, and enough vodka to get to memorial day.
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The local TV drinking game is way more fun:
http://www.universalhub.com/2013/we-need-tv-blizzard-drinking-game
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Once the Channel Center (that's the one surround the WTC Station, right) is built and they finally build on the parcel at Silver Line Way, the Silver Line will be capable of running South Station to Silver Line Way without being exposed (except the D St intersection and the "intersection" with "Port Lane").
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

choo said:
For the record, I have no problem with what the T is doing. I know it never happens, but what if a train brakes down? What if the wind is blowing and going down the entrance to subway stairs faster than the MBTA can clear them? What if emergency crews can't get to a stranded train on the Commuter rail.

Half of the problems come from people getting trapped when they go in and can't go on the way out. The T shutting down makes people stay close and in, which may be a PITA for some, but it is by far the safest and quickest option for all. By Sunday, the T will be running at normal service. The people saying this as overkill are the same people that would yell, "why did the T keep running and put people in these potentially deadly situations?!" the moment something went wrong.

Everyone sit back, relax and play the weather channel drinking games. I have enough deli meats to get to Monday, and enough vodka to get to memorial day.
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I guess my problem is this. The T is closing in 68 minutes. There's less than a quarter inch of snow. As F-line notes (and agree with) why couldn't they go even until 10? Suspend service earlier but allow third shift to get to at least go to work..
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

bbfen said:
I guess my problem is this. The T is closing in 68 minutes. There's less than a quarter inch of snow. As F-line notes (and agree with) why couldn't they go even until 10? Suspend service earlier but allow third shift to get to at least go to work..
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I think that's the point right there. The state doesn't want people traveling tonight, period. The problem of losing a day's wages is a serious one, to be sure, but from the state's perspective, the problem of having people out traveling during the worst of this blizzard is a much bigger one.

As I said, I think the state wants employers to be reasonable and not penalize workers who can't come in, and I think the state wants employees to take sick or personal days if their employers still call them in. Closing the T is an indirect tool to that end.

The governor instituted a driving ban after 4pm earlier today, which makes me wonder if the T knew ahead of time.

To be clear, I agree that some sort of service should remain, but I can understand why TPTB decided not to.

As for turning at Blandford, I was exploring the possibility of keeping trains completely underground, as a sort of "worst-case" scenario.

Also, I wouldn't be too sure about Longfellow. '78 was 30 years ago, and, from what I can tell, Longfellow has had an awful lot of deferred maintenance since then.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

F-Line to Dudley said:
That said, it's a little weak that they can't keep Red Alewife-JFK, Green Blandford or Fenway-North Station and Northeastern-North Station, Blue Logan-Bowdoin, Orange Sullivan-Ruggles, and Silver SS-SLW going till 11:00pm. All of those routes stray the minimum-most amount above-ground and keep enough yard access to run skeletal regular service on 15-20 min. headways. [...]Any surface-running beyond that, and any commuter rail whatsoever is going to be foolhardy in these conditions. No question. I just think they're doing a real disservice being that gun-shy about the tunnels with easy yard capacity.
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I agree. WMATA has a whole separate snow map which is basically the underground sections that they keep running:
http://www.wmata.com/getting_around/safety_security/snowmap.cfm

A nice clear message would be: "Only the underground sections of the Red, Orange and Blue Lines and the Green Line from North Station to Kenmore will be operating, but these lines will operate 24 hours on reduced schedules"
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

BostonUrbEx said:
It may be 4:30pm, but the "last" Orange Line trains only just left Downtown Crossing a little while ago. All remaining trains are snow trains, and will pick anyone up who managed to get inside a station which hasn't been closed yet.

Listen in to MBTA radio frequencies live: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bostonrailfan#utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=13297246&utm_medium=social
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Nope, sounds like a pax is getting dumped at downtown crossing and told to go on his merry way.

No red line for him.

:(

(then again, it is 1.5 hours after the scheduled close)
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

jass said:
Nope, sounds like a pax is getting dumped at downtown crossing and told to go on his merry way.

No red line for him.

:(

(then again, it is 1.5 hours after the scheduled close)
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Yeah, I heard that. Sucks to be him.

Meanwhile, they held a 108 bus in Malden for someone who got picked up by the Orange Line at Community College.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Riverside said:
I think that's the point right there. The state doesn't want people traveling tonight, period. The problem of losing a day's wages is a serious one, to be sure, but from the state's perspective, the problem of having people out traveling during the worst of this blizzard is a much bigger one.

As I said, I think the state wants employers to be reasonable and not penalize workers who can't come in, and I think the state wants employees to take sick or personal days if their employers still call them in. Closing the T is an indirect tool to that end.
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My whole point is it's not about losing a day's wages though this does impact those who need wages the most. It's that these are the people who do the critical jobs that keep things going for the rest of us. Nurses, hotel workers front and back ofhouse, the entire fleet of immigrants who are clearing sidewalks across the city. And some people don't have the benefit of sick days or personal days. It doesn't matter what the city or the T or Cadillac Deval says. You show the fuck up or you get replaced.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

bbfen said:
My whole point is it's not about losing a day's wages though this does impact those who need wages the most. It's that these are the people who do the critical jobs that keep things going for the rest of us. Nurses, hotel workers front and back ofhouse, the entire fleet of immigrants who are clearing sidewalks across the city. And some people don't have the benefit of sick days or personal days. It doesn't matter what the city or the T or Cadillac Deval says. You show the fuck up or you get replaced.
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The reason the T closed at 3:30 was to allow "2nd shift workers" to get home and "3rd shift workers" to arrive. It was also the same reasoning behind the 4PM travel ban. Deval said that he had been working closely with all essential employers (police, fire, hospital, etc) to figure out the best time to allow the workers to get home and get to work if need be.

By keeping the T open, it encourages people to move around the city and no one should be doing that right now. It doesn't matter car or foot.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

bbfen said:
My whole point is it's not about losing a day's wages though this does impact those who need wages the most. It's that these are the people who do the critical jobs that keep things going for the rest of us. Nurses, hotel workers front and back ofhouse, the entire fleet of immigrants who are clearing sidewalks across the city. And some people don't have the benefit of sick days or personal days. It doesn't matter what the city or the T or Cadillac Deval says. You show the fuck up or you get replaced.
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According to my gf who is a RN, most nurses are treated to a night at a hotel nearby. I'm pretty sure this goes for the same for many other workers that have to work today.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

MGH made a deal with Liberty Hotel to give reduced rates to nurses over the weekend.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

**BREAKING: MBTA: SERVICE WILL NOT BE RESTORED TODAY**

Citing "tired employees" from working all night and replacement employees not being able to replace them. Also fearing running the trains in these horrendous conditions.

Also: Deval: Update on travel ban will occur at midday today. Ban remains in effect.
 
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