General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)
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whighlander
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Matt ... aren't you Left-Greenies concerned about the paper which is consumed by the printing of the PoP receipts
I thought that we were moving in the direction of "Paperless Transit" to keep landfills from overflowing with spent PoP tickets
Matt ... aren't you Left-Greenies concerned about the paper which is consumed by the printing of the PoP receipts
I thought that we were moving in the direction of "Paperless Transit" to keep landfills from overflowing with spent PoP tickets
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
My response is what davem said:
Having inspector taking money at heavy use station can work as an alternative to PoP. It can cut down on dwell times without leading to massive spending enclosing stations and labor cost. As davem gave as an example, the inspectors at Harvard St and Coolidge Corner probably did a lot of good in reducing dwell times and enforcing payment. The cost of the inspector may even be can by increased payment. It cannot save as much as PoP system on equal implementation, but not a net increase as long it is done right.
I understand your worry of the risk that its practice leads to a slow incrementalism of entrench, overpaid salaries and eventually enclosed stations at absurd cost. A PoP system, by its nature, gives less opportunity (but not zero, having inspectors doing random PoP inspections can lead to escalation to entrenched, overpaid inspectors too). But it necessarily true. The inspectors at Harvard St. didn't lead to full shelters and ensures, did it?
While Matthew's sarcasm didn't ingratiate your response. The question of your hostility to PoP system still remains. What's wrong intrinsically wrong with a PoP system?
And remember what I said earlier. Pointing that asking for proof as a system was used by authoritarian governments does only indict by association (association fallacy) rather than attacking its merits or shows its harm (the actual intrinsic elements). Asking for proof you paid is not the same as asking for proof of being allowed to travel. If they are not, then asking for a receipt for returning an item is the same.
My response is what davem said:
Having inspector taking money at heavy use station can work as an alternative to PoP. It can cut down on dwell times without leading to massive spending enclosing stations and labor cost. As davem gave as an example, the inspectors at Harvard St and Coolidge Corner probably did a lot of good in reducing dwell times and enforcing payment. The cost of the inspector may even be can by increased payment. It cannot save as much as PoP system on equal implementation, but not a net increase as long it is done right.
I understand your worry of the risk that its practice leads to a slow incrementalism of entrench, overpaid salaries and eventually enclosed stations at absurd cost. A PoP system, by its nature, gives less opportunity (but not zero, having inspectors doing random PoP inspections can lead to escalation to entrenched, overpaid inspectors too). But it necessarily true. The inspectors at Harvard St. didn't lead to full shelters and ensures, did it?
While Matthew's sarcasm didn't ingratiate your response. The question of your hostility to PoP system still remains. What's wrong intrinsically wrong with a PoP system?
And remember what I said earlier. Pointing that asking for proof as a system was used by authoritarian governments does only indict by association (association fallacy) rather than attacking its merits or shows its harm (the actual intrinsic elements). Asking for proof you paid is not the same as asking for proof of being allowed to travel. If they are not, then asking for a receipt for returning an item is the same.
F-Line to Dudley
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Don't we have, like, 3 ongoing cripple-fight threads on the General forum for wallowing in mindless ideological talking point crapulence?
Don't we have, like, 3 ongoing cripple-fight threads on the General forum for wallowing in mindless ideological talking point crapulence?
FenwayResident
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
I don't see why POP needs to produce a paper receipt. It would be trivial to check POP on a Charlie Card, and it should be possible on a Charlie Ticket as well. Not sure if the paper ticket records any information other than the balance at this point, but it should be able to store the most recent time of use as well. Then you'd just need the auditors to have a device that reads the Charlie Card/Tickets.
The only problem I can think of is a cash payment on the trolley, but those normally give you paper receipts anyway for bus transfers, right?
I don't see why POP needs to produce a paper receipt. It would be trivial to check POP on a Charlie Card, and it should be possible on a Charlie Ticket as well. Not sure if the paper ticket records any information other than the balance at this point, but it should be able to store the most recent time of use as well. Then you'd just need the auditors to have a device that reads the Charlie Card/Tickets.
The only problem I can think of is a cash payment on the trolley, but those normally give you paper receipts anyway for bus transfers, right?
metasyntactic
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Or in an ideal world they could offer a mobile app like for the CR lines that an inspector could check for POP.
Some other US/Canada bus operators that use POP:
And more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-payment#Bus
Or in an ideal world they could offer a mobile app like for the CR lines that an inspector could check for POP.
Some other US/Canada bus operators that use POP:
And more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-payment#Bus
FenwayResident
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
While POP is a good alternative to front-door-only during rush hour, it does reduce revenue during off-peak times. You're not going to catch/deter every fare evader. Of course as a commuter I'd rather have the trains be on time, with no front-door-only policy, than the alternative of making sure every person pays.
As a random thought... I'd be interested to see a study done on fare evaders and see what demographic they tend to be (if any), which stations they tend to evade at, and when they tend to do it. I would highly suspect they trend towards students doing it at the peripheral stops during off-peak times. Of course that's just an educated guess based on no data.
If it ends up being students who are the majority fare evaders, couldn't the city charge the schools a per student fee in exchange for giving all of them monthly passes? Then we wouldn't have to worry about POP or front-door-only boarding?
While POP is a good alternative to front-door-only during rush hour, it does reduce revenue during off-peak times. You're not going to catch/deter every fare evader. Of course as a commuter I'd rather have the trains be on time, with no front-door-only policy, than the alternative of making sure every person pays.
As a random thought... I'd be interested to see a study done on fare evaders and see what demographic they tend to be (if any), which stations they tend to evade at, and when they tend to do it. I would highly suspect they trend towards students doing it at the peripheral stops during off-peak times. Of course that's just an educated guess based on no data.
If it ends up being students who are the majority fare evaders, couldn't the city charge the schools a per student fee in exchange for giving all of them monthly passes? Then we wouldn't have to worry about POP or front-door-only boarding?
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
LA's TAP card allows for both passes and stored value. The last tap on a subway gate or bus fare box gets you two hours of validation. Subway to subway transfers require another tap at validators located along the way.*
* And yes, they charge you again. But a system-wide day pass is only $5.
LA's TAP card allows for both passes and stored value. The last tap on a subway gate or bus fare box gets you two hours of validation. Subway to subway transfers require another tap at validators located along the way.*
* And yes, they charge you again. But a system-wide day pass is only $5.
whighlander
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Well .... " I mean, my first experience with POP was in Berlin on the ubahn " ... Berlin was the original home of "Jawohl, mein Kommandant" as well as "Your Papers Macht schnell"
They are used to taking orders and following faithfully -- not a whole lot of J-Walking in Berlin
As to the comment about receipts and returns -- that's a purely voluntary transaction between a customer and a private entity selling you something --- there is no power of the government involved
If someone can develop a truly anonymous means of verification of a purchase of a ride on a transit system -- which can be handled entirely through a phone. wifi, bluetooth or NFC transaction -- no paper need enter the game and there will be a minimal need for the inspectors
However this is a big IF:
1) no record of who was where
2) no permanent "paper trail" either for the $ or the person
I would suggest something such as Bitcoin except for its recent linkage to illegal transactions of illegal substances
Well .... " I mean, my first experience with POP was in Berlin on the ubahn " ... Berlin was the original home of "Jawohl, mein Kommandant" as well as "Your Papers Macht schnell"
They are used to taking orders and following faithfully -- not a whole lot of J-Walking in Berlin
As to the comment about receipts and returns -- that's a purely voluntary transaction between a customer and a private entity selling you something --- there is no power of the government involved
If someone can develop a truly anonymous means of verification of a purchase of a ride on a transit system -- which can be handled entirely through a phone. wifi, bluetooth or NFC transaction -- no paper need enter the game and there will be a minimal need for the inspectors
However this is a big IF:
1) no record of who was where
2) no permanent "paper trail" either for the $ or the person
I would suggest something such as Bitcoin except for its recent linkage to illegal transactions of illegal substances
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
MUNI does the 2-hour thing. Each tap gives you 2 hours of unlimited access. But after 90 minutes, if you tap again, it charges you again, for a new 2 hour period.
Receipts are a pain but don't need to be common in this modern world. Encouraging the use of smartcards, phones, apps, whatever, with passes is usually what such systems do. Give a discount, offer whatever "carrot" you want, try to entice people to buy passes. Or at least use electronic media. The point of all this work is to make boarding as fast as possible, y'know, the opposite attitude from the T. It almost seems like the T isn't a transportation system, it's just a fare collection system with some moving parts.
POP doesn't have to mean revenue loss either. It should save money in the long run, because you can tweak its operation to plug holes and make up for any losses. Also it's a lot cheaper to deploy. Front door boarding just causes trains to fall behind schedule ... fall behind enough and they have to add more trains to the line, at $230/revenue hour. That ain't cheap, and for what? To catch a few fare evaders who cost $1 apiece (avg fare)?
P.S. the U-Pass report included a fare evasion study which found a fare evasion rate of something like 1.5% ... peanuts, really. The T is so stupid about this issue.
MUNI does the 2-hour thing. Each tap gives you 2 hours of unlimited access. But after 90 minutes, if you tap again, it charges you again, for a new 2 hour period.
Receipts are a pain but don't need to be common in this modern world. Encouraging the use of smartcards, phones, apps, whatever, with passes is usually what such systems do. Give a discount, offer whatever "carrot" you want, try to entice people to buy passes. Or at least use electronic media. The point of all this work is to make boarding as fast as possible, y'know, the opposite attitude from the T. It almost seems like the T isn't a transportation system, it's just a fare collection system with some moving parts.
POP doesn't have to mean revenue loss either. It should save money in the long run, because you can tweak its operation to plug holes and make up for any losses. Also it's a lot cheaper to deploy. Front door boarding just causes trains to fall behind schedule ... fall behind enough and they have to add more trains to the line, at $230/revenue hour. That ain't cheap, and for what? To catch a few fare evaders who cost $1 apiece (avg fare)?
P.S. the U-Pass report included a fare evasion study which found a fare evasion rate of something like 1.5% ... peanuts, really. The T is so stupid about this issue.
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Are you fucking kidding me with this shit? I'll be sure to let my godson and cousin know he's a mindless automaton next time I'm over there. Maybe on the way I can piss on my relatives graves too, since they apparently died for nothing while wandering around that bombed out country for years after having their farmhouse burned down and grandfather shot by the russians because of a war they were against and wanted nothing to do with.
Good thing were free from blindly following orders here in the states, though. Because we never locked up american families because they had japaneese heratige, arbitrarily accused citizens of being communist collaborators, shipped innocent people to secret internment camps, started wars based on false pretences, or allowed slavery, and then racism to be legal for decades.
By your logic, we shold be worlds better at obeying a POP system then your average berliner
Are you fucking kidding me with this shit? I'll be sure to let my godson and cousin know he's a mindless automaton next time I'm over there. Maybe on the way I can piss on my relatives graves too, since they apparently died for nothing while wandering around that bombed out country for years after having their farmhouse burned down and grandfather shot by the russians because of a war they were against and wanted nothing to do with.
Good thing were free from blindly following orders here in the states, though. Because we never locked up american families because they had japaneese heratige, arbitrarily accused citizens of being communist collaborators, shipped innocent people to secret internment camps, started wars based on false pretences, or allowed slavery, and then racism to be legal for decades.
By your logic, we shold be worlds better at obeying a POP system then your average berliner
F-Line to Dudley
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
I see the heavy-handed, off-topic trolling theatre is back in town.
I see the heavy-handed, off-topic trolling theatre is back in town.
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Yup. The vacation was nice while it lasted.
Anyway, the fear-based POP system in Berlin works beautifully. There are some Schwarzfahrern (dodgers, literally "black riders"), but the 40 Euro fine that they will mail anywhere in the world works as a nice deterrent. German law states that you must carry an ID on you at all times and if the Kontrolle catches you without a ticket, you must give your ID.
There's just a general respect for transit in Berlin that would never work with American culture the way it currently is. I think the respect comes from the fact that it works so damn well... like clockwork. The stations and trains are spotless and modernized completely. This is all because the transit systems are not state funded and are actually privatized completely. The BVG operates the U-Bahn and Deutsche Bahn operates the S-Bahn. Even more astounding is that the private entities (BVG and DB) work together to create a flawlessly integrated mega-system.
Yup. The vacation was nice while it lasted.
Anyway, the fear-based POP system in Berlin works beautifully. There are some Schwarzfahrern (dodgers, literally "black riders"), but the 40 Euro fine that they will mail anywhere in the world works as a nice deterrent. German law states that you must carry an ID on you at all times and if the Kontrolle catches you without a ticket, you must give your ID.
There's just a general respect for transit in Berlin that would never work with American culture the way it currently is. I think the respect comes from the fact that it works so damn well... like clockwork. The stations and trains are spotless and modernized completely. This is all because the transit systems are not state funded and are actually privatized completely. The BVG operates the U-Bahn and Deutsche Bahn operates the S-Bahn. Even more astounding is that the private entities (BVG and DB) work together to create a flawlessly integrated mega-system.
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
The most amazing thing to me is that T implemented the front door policy solely because people complained about fare evasion. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but) it does not appear that the T analyzed all the possible solutions to figure out what the best way to reduce fare evasion while not delaying creating further delays was. Just because people complain about something doesn't mean you should just do what they say. The people in charge are supposed to be more rational and methodical than that.
The most amazing thing to me is that T implemented the front door policy solely because people complained about fare evasion. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but) it does not appear that the T analyzed all the possible solutions to figure out what the best way to reduce fare evasion while not delaying creating further delays was. Just because people complain about something doesn't mean you should just do what they say. The people in charge are supposed to be more rational and methodical than that.
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
If the driver's not doing fares, how do we feel about having "blind trailers" on a 2-car or 3-car Green Line train?, with the only driver (in the front car) responsible for closing the doors on all the "back" cars? (happens all the time on Prague's POP-based streetcars, anyway)
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Ref link for those wondering: http://www.universalhub.com/2013/police-man-gets-bus-drivers-face-causes-bus-crash
There are ALWAYS crazies on the 116/117 bugging the driver. I've been worried about this quite a few times since I moved to Chelsea in July.
Ref link for those wondering: http://www.universalhub.com/2013/police-man-gets-bus-drivers-face-causes-bus-crash
There are ALWAYS crazies on the 116/117 bugging the driver. I've been worried about this quite a few times since I moved to Chelsea in July.
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Arlington, SF MUNI also does that. It's amazing really, because MUNI is usually as backwards an agency as the T, but they did somehow get some sensible operational improvements.
Arlington, SF MUNI also does that. It's amazing really, because MUNI is usually as backwards an agency as the T, but they did somehow get some sensible operational improvements.
Tombstoner
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Yep--there are crazies bugging the driver, but more commonly in my experience, there are "friends" hanging around the driver chatting and laughing non-stop at the driver's encouragement/full participation (and it's both male and female drivers). Three different drivers on the #39 this week were almost oblivious to anyone tapping their card... or hopping in through the back door... or on-coming traffic... because they were so engrossed in flirting and/or gossiping.
Yep--there are crazies bugging the driver, but more commonly in my experience, there are "friends" hanging around the driver chatting and laughing non-stop at the driver's encouragement/full participation (and it's both male and female drivers). Three different drivers on the #39 this week were almost oblivious to anyone tapping their card... or hopping in through the back door... or on-coming traffic... because they were so engrossed in flirting and/or gossiping.