General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Regarding the Type 7 accessibility issues from before, Dallas already solved this with their very similar fleet:

http://www.kinkisharyo.com/successstories-dart.html
http://www.kinkisharyo.com/media/pdf/dallas.pdf

This solves multiple problems the T currently has: they would be able to run a train with roughly the capacity of three cars with two, it makes every train accessible, and they could probably contract out the rebuild work for the same time the center piece is put in.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Posted on UHub - Brilliant.

t-time.jpg
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Whoa. I love this.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Good illustration of why signal priority on the green line is so important. You can get to Braintree quicker than Allston St?!
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

davem said:
Regarding the Type 7 accessibility issues from before, Dallas already solved this with their very similar fleet:

http://www.kinkisharyo.com/successstories-dart.html
http://www.kinkisharyo.com/media/pdf/dallas.pdf

This solves multiple problems the T currently has: they would be able to run a train with roughly the capacity of three cars with two, it makes every train accessible, and they could probably contract out the rebuild work for the same time the center piece is put in.
Click to expand...

Kinki proposed exactly that when it bid on the Type 8 order. Their design was a 7 carbody with system updates with a low-floor "sandwich" section between the two ends. Then proposed building add-on "sandwich" sections for the existing 3600 fleet where they'd be sent to the factory, the ends separated, and the sandwich section inserted. Basically, 2 cars would be almost as long as 3 and 3 about the size of 4. And the new ones would basically be the packed into the same exact carbody, with modestly updated innards. Clean, simple, effective...the Occam's Razor build.

The T pooh-poohed the idea arbitrarily saying the cars had to be EXACTLY the same length as the Boeings and existing 7's (Why? who knows...the platforms are built for it and turning radii exactly the same). And then Breda under-bid them with its kooky untested design and that was that. Kinki got a consolation prize--AFTER the Breda deal was consumated--of the 20-car 3700 workalike order, which it ripped out in a year flat, to replace a bunch of scrapped Boeings while the 8's were taking years longer to build. We could've had 115 "7+'s" rolling by 1999, and then shuttled the 90-something operating 3600's to have the "sandwich" section installed. For little more than the cheap per-unit cost of the 3700's...instead of the gruesome bath they took on the Breda overruns.

Kinki dusted itself off, took the best of the 7 tech, and sold a shitload of new low-floor models to other cities. Then came up with those bitchin' new modular AmeriTrams it's selling now. All of that a souped-up evolution of what they were proposing for the "7+'s" 15 years ago.


The T didn't just go full-retard on the Breda order. It went full-metal-retard.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I have to wonder what was happening as the Breda order developed with the Breda engineers. What go through their minds as they fell behind and watch competition like Kinki do a so much better job them their work. Lowest or not, it's an interesting thought to be the "low-bid quality engineer"
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

In the very cool T map above, the GL/E is pretty inaccurate. Prudential to Symphony to Northeastern to MFA stops are just a minute apart--suggesting that Northeastern to MFA is a 5 minute trip is significantly off.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I'd love to do a "real" version of that map, based on real trip time data collected under a variety of circumstances (as opposed to the theoretical schedules this map is based on).

Actually wouldn't be that hard to crowdsource, really. Make an app that allows people to report when and where they embark and disembark the train. Really dedicated folks can notate when they arrive at each stop.

Or can we do that already on the Red/Orange/Blue lines with the data that the T has released publically?

And I totally geeked out when I saw that map last night. That is seriously one of the coolest transit maps I have ever seen. Period.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

ant8904 said:
I have to wonder what was happening as the Breda order developed with the Breda engineers. What go through their minds as they fell behind and watch competition like Kinki do a so much better job them their work. Lowest or not, it's an interesting thought to be the "low-bid quality engineer"
Click to expand...

Breda was inexperienced at doing trolleys back then. They're very experienced and reliable with heavy rail cars, but light rail was a new market for them 15 years ago. Some of their other builds from the same era had teething problems too. None as bad as the 8's because low-floors elsewhere can be wider and taller, but San Fran and other cities were kind of meh with the Breda purchases they made. The dimensional constraints and the T's utter stubbornness about cramming a low-floor into the same early-70's design Boeing carbody put them in over their heads. They blinked. They weren't all that forthcoming about the problems or at all quick to pounce on them. And the design flaws manifested themselves with the PR disaster over the derailments.

They've gotten MUCH better since then and make pretty solid vehicles now. It was a learning experience. And they are a competent outfit with vehicles in use worldwide. But boy oh boy did they take it on the chin. I think they know they don't have any shot at another T bid for a generation, and probably aren't going to try on the 9's.


Kinki, on the other hand, is hands-down one of the 2 or 3 best light rail builders in the world. If not the single best. Properly taken care of the 7's could last 45-50 years. And still get that low-floor sandwich section added someday. Everything Kinki has done since is based on the 7's, up to and including those awesome new Ameritrams. It's one of the best designs anyone has come up with in the last 40 years. And they are a through-and-through professional outfit on customer service and overall craftsmanship. If somebody else beats them for the 9's contract--and it's not one of the other Top 3 makers like Alstom or Bombardier--something is seriously wrong. But I doubt that bid is going to be seriously wrong. The T amended its low-bid rules for the 9's to weight the maker's reliability and service reputation. The rules pretty heavily favor Kinki on this bid.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Are the SF cars from Breda newer? I recall they have retracting stairs to serve high and low platforms. Seems like another moving part to break down, but I didn't see any problems while I was there. One time, I did spot one Breda stuck at the bottom of Dolores Park (J) for a while until they pushed it back to the yard.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Matthew said:
Are the SF cars from Breda newer? I recall they have retracting stairs to serve high and low platforms. Seems like another moving part to break down, but I didn't see any problems while I was there. One time, I did spot one Breda stuck at the bottom of Dolores Park (J) for a while until they pushed it back to the yard.
Click to expand...

San Fran had the same Boeings the T did, so its Bredas were likewise a late-1990's replacement order. They worked out the kinks sooner than the T did because their wider cars didn't have nearly as problematic a low-floor design. But there were similar teething problems. And little things that work, but are a little underwhelming on quality. You know, similar to the shrill door chimes issues and how slow the doors are on the 8's. Rookie mistakes an inexperienced builder would make that old pros like Kinki wouldn't.

They work pretty well now, but MUNI certainly wasn't impressed enough to think Breda knocked it out of the park by any means.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

practical question: I am thinking of switching from my monthly link pass (bus and subway) to just a monthly bus pass, as I find myself only riding the T a handful of times. The economic calculus comes down to this:

If i buy a monthly bus pass and get on the subway, does the gate take the fare difference (like a transfer) or does it take the full $2 subway fare?

Thanks for the help!
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

No, a bus pass is for local buses, period. A pass doesn't entitle you to any discount of a higher-priced trip.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

damn. thanks, Ron
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The LinkPass is really a bargain compared to other cities. I could never give mine up. It's just nice to have and be able to hop on and off the T at your convenience, plus you get access to all the buses.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

This agency has no idea how to run trains.

"labor day weekend sunday no customers!"

No.

Theres a shitload of mobile college kids and their parents flooding the green line.

Waited 15+ mins at Harvard street (watched not one, not two, but FOUR 66 buses go by, thats how bad it was) before a SINGLE B line comes in.

Naturally, all doors open as the station was packed, and many tried to board by the front.

MOVE MOVE MOVE MOVE MOVE MOVE MOVE screamed the nice T lady, no payments today, we were late.

From packards, expressed to Blanchard. Brilliant for me, major fail for the 100+ students (and their parents) we passed at all the BU stops.

What a wonderful first impression of the T!


Seriously, 15+ minute gaps and running singles on move in weekend? Idiots.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Lol that's nothing... 15 minutes is a great headway for Sunday on the T.

30 minutes. Single-car E train. End of story.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

jass said:
Brilliant for me, major fail for the 100+ students (and their parents) we passed at all the BU stops.
Click to expand...

The phrase "sucks to BU" seems most fitting here... ;)

But seriously, the front door only policy coupled with the excessive stops obliterates any chance of the B running on a consistent headway. Most of those parents and students probably weren't even necessarily headed Downtown, but rather to other parts of BU's campus. That said, I can't for the life of me figure out why BU won't ever spring for their own special shuttles during special events and time periods. Having the B Line at BU's front doors is really only a selling point under normal operating conditions (i.e. not move-in weekend).
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

datadyne007 said:
Lol that's nothing... 15 minutes is a great headway for Sunday on the T.

30 minutes. Single-car E train. End of story.
Click to expand...

It was 15 mins for us, there was already a crowd when we arrived, indicating it had been a wait.

omaja said:
The phrase "sucks to BU" seems most fitting here... ;)

But seriously, the front door only policy coupled with the excessive stops obliterates any chance of the B running on a consistent headway. Most of those parents and students probably weren't even necessarily headed Downtown, but rather to other parts of BU's campus. That said, I can't for the life of me figure out why BU won't ever spring for their own special shuttles during special events and time periods. Having the B Line at BU's front doors is really only a selling point under normal operating conditions (i.e. not move-in weekend).
Click to expand...


The front door policy is the only proof needed that the MBTA heads have never ridden the green line their life outside of maybe going between park and gvt.

At Harvard all doors opened, and Blandford it was a lengthy wait as she only opened the front door.



BU does have a good and frequent bus service.

http://www.bu.edu/thebus/

Anyone can ride as they dont ask for ID. Its free.




One good thing: nice to see the countdown clocks at park for the red line. Was 2 mins and 6 mins for the alewife train when I arrived.

The bad part was I didnt see any monitors on the rgeen line level to let you know if you should run.

Also, it was my first time riding since the one operator policy....didnt notice any difference.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Yes, I know about the BUS. My point is that during special BU events or high-demand times, they seem unwilling to increase frequencies or create special shuttle routes to get their crowds where they need to be.

And despite the BUS, there is no hope of BU ever supporting or even accepting stop consolidation along its campus. The normal BUS route skips BU East, for crying out loud! There should be four stops between Packard's Corner and Kenmore: Pleasant, BU West, BU Central, and Blandford. Everything else can be handled by people walking to alternate stops, or opting for the 57/BUS.

Completely agree about the front door policy - it is so poorly thought out I can't even believe they rolled it. As you've noted, the operator has discretion to open all doors if platforms are too crowded or too many people need to exit. It makes for a very unpredictable service pattern outside of rush hour (especially the time immediately before and after the designated rush hour periods) that can make or break a train's dwell times.
 
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