Logan Airport Capital Projects

atlantaden said:
Why not just build the damn thing as one construction project and get it over with instead of stretching it out. Literally, it's a fairly small, new terminal with seven new gates, big deal.
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Because that's not how Massport capital projects funding works & there are all kinds of buildings & infrastructure that needs to be relocated in Phase I. Phasing it allows for half of the new terminal to open instead of waiting out the entire construction process. Massport has a great capital projects track record completing things on schedule with their new lean construction & pull planning process.
 
datadyne007 said:
Because that's not how Massport capital projects funding works & there are all kinds of buildings & infrastructure that needs to be relocated in Phase I. Phasing it allows for half of the new terminal to open instead of waiting out the entire construction process. Massport has a great capital projects track record completing things on schedule with their new lean construction & pull planning process.
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Since the second phase of this construction project will be completed in 2028, I'm not impressed. Seriously, a mini-terminal with 7 gates and some sort of covered moving sidewalk to the T will take 12 years to complete? 12 years??
 
atlantaden said:
Since the second phase of this construction project will be completed in 2028, I'm not impressed. Seriously, a mini-terminal with 7 gates and some sort of covered moving sidewalk to the T will take 12 years to complete? 12 years??
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It's not really a "mini-terminal." It has its own ticketing and CBP facilities. It's a full terminal.
 
atlantaden said:
Since the second phase of this construction project will be completed in 2028, I'm not impressed. Seriously, a mini-terminal with 7 gates and some sort of covered moving sidewalk to the T will take 12 years to complete? 12 years??
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Also, this is not some greenfield construction project. We are talking carefully phased work in the middle of a very busy airport with tight space constraints, without disrupting the activities of the airport.

Or we could go all Government Center on this and close Terminal E for the duration to speed it up. That would go over well.
 
Equilibria said:
It's not really a "mini-terminal." It has its own ticketing and CBP facilities. It's a full terminal.
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Not to undermine your point of the scope (this is a major terminal addition), but it does not have ticketing. Ticketing will remain only in the existing part of E. The new terminal addition (except for the BL walkway) is entirely sterile accessed thru the central checkpoint. It is simply a continuation of the A380 arm.
 
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Isn't a lot of the phasing/incremental work a result of how these projects are financed? The airport grows in small chunks because traffic grows in small chunks?

Seems to me, many of the "whole terminal" projects in elswhere are either:
1) driven by a hub carrier who promises to take a whole terminal (Delta's Logan Terminal A, in the 2000s)
2) Financed in a big bond issuance with some municipal backer.
 
JeffDowntown said:
Also, this is not some greenfield construction project. We are talking carefully phased work in the middle of a very busy airport with tight space constraints, without disrupting the activities of the airport.

Or we could go all Government Center on this and close Terminal E for the duration to speed it up. That would go over well.
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Jeff, this isn't another Big damn Dig (what did that take, 16 years to complete from the start of construction, this will take 12?), nor is this a tear down and build-up of a new Terminal E similiar to what happened at Terminal A with the old Eastern Airlines Terminal, not is this in the middle of the airport. This is, if you'd refer to Data's description, an addition of the present Terminal E, far from any of the other terminals. I get the whole constraints in that area, the new roadways, moving the Gulf station along with the FedEx or whatever, but seriously, 12 years? How long will it take from start to finish of the Copley Place Condo building, built atop the Mass Pike? Lots of infrastructure and carefully phased work there, will it take 12 years? According to the BRA, once construction begins it will take three years, I'll tag on another year for four. 12 years just seems totally excessive.
 
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atlantaden said:
Jeff, this isn't another Big damn Dig (what did that take, 16 years to complete from the start of construction), nor is this a tear down and build-up of a new Terminal E similiar to what happened at Terminal A with the old Eastern Airlines Terminal, not is this in the middle of the airport. This is, if you'd refer to Data's description, an addition of the present Terminal E, far from any of the other terminals. I get the whole constraints in that area, the new roadways, moving the Gulf station along with the FedEx or whatever, but seriously, 12 years? How long will it take from start to finish of the Copley Place Condo building, built atop the Mass Pike? Lots of infrastructure and carefully phased work there, will it take 12 years? According to the BRA, once construction begins it will take three years, I'll tag on another year for four. 12 years just seems totally excessive.
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I will give you two likely reasons for the long time, particularly given the phasing:

1) Relocation of current uses, specifically the UPS facility that is displaced by Phase 2. From all the plans I have seen, they have not yet come up with an acceptable relocation alternative.

2) Environmental remediation. Phase 1 has to relocate the Gulf Station and also builds on the former (ancient) AA hanger site. Those are both brownfield locations and will likely require remediation.

12 years does seem long, but some processes take time, particularly when you have space constraints and the requirement to keep things like the UPS services, Delta hanger access (direct abutter) and supplemental baggage handling (also affected) all operational.
 
It would take Dubai less than a year to build a brand new terminal with 30 gates. I agree with Atlantaden 12 years is excessive.
 
tysmith95 said:
It would take Dubai less than a year to build a brand new terminal with 30 gates. I agree with Atlantaden 12 years is excessive.
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There you have a state sponsor for financing, a blank slate of sand on which to build, and little in the way of labor, environmental or open business processes.
 
http://www.atlantamagazine.com/news...billion-expansion-will-transform-the-airport/

Ok, Atlanta is no Dubai but Hartsfield-Jackson Airport in Atlanta is spending 6 Billion on different projects, none of which will take 12 years to complete. And the ones that will take 11 years are huge projects.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/go...ion-transformative-redesign-laguardia-airport

NY/NJ Port Authority is building a practically building a whole new LaGuadia airport with the first half being completed by 2020.
 
I'm completely with atlantaden on this. Moving to Boston 5 years ago, it has never ceased to amaze me that moderately sized projects here (Jeff mentioned Government Center Station--they shut down the whole frigging thing for YEARS for a simple renovation--yes some structural modifications, but not an overhaul by any stretch) seem to labor mightily and bring forth a mouse. Yeah, can't remember the adage, but you get my drift. We can always justify projects as involving "special Boston circumstances" and come up with a thousand site-specific reasons/constraints but, has been discussed frequently in this forum, Europe seems to get it done. Hell, Heathrow will have a third runway in the time we need to build a moving walkway to the T. :rolleyes:
 
While I agree that things take much longer than one would expect (Government Center station, Longfellow bridge etc.) - in this particular case I am with Massport.
Primarily, I don't think it makes sense to invest a ton of money into a project with suspect ROI. It's my understanding that there are some serious doubts about viability of further international expansion. And certainly not at the recent pace.
It makes sense to proceed here in such a way that you can quickly stop/cut your losses if market turns...
 
Brandenburg. Pre-construction (land-clearing) completed 2004-2005. Construction began 2006. Anyone flown into Brandenburg yet?
 
atlantaden said:
NY/NJ Port Authority is building a practically building a whole new LaGuadia airport with the first half being completed by 2020.
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If you believe that, I think someone at PANYNJ would literally like to sell you a bridge.
 
stellarfun said:
Brandenburg. Pre-construction (land-clearing) completed 2004-2005. Construction began 2006. Anyone flown into Brandenburg yet?
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You're talking a whole new airport (Brandenberg) and if it's finished in 2018, that's 12 years, the same time as planned for the addition to Terminal E with seven gates! I mean, you can't possibly compare the two!
 
BER is a special situation. It took a while, but the airport has been done for a few years. The issue is a non code-compliant fire smoke damper system that was discovered by the fire marshal a month prior to the opening (there were flights booked to BER) and all the HVAC needed to be reworked. A fire in the central ticketing hall would have had catastrophic effects due to the way the air was being distributed.

Anyway, the Massport document says "BY 2028." It doesn't say in 2028. It won't necessarily take this much time. That's just the window they expect to construct in & likely the window that is funded.
 
I realize Brandenburg is the exception, and they keep finding design flaws. Terminal 5 at LHR took six years.

I believe Logan's terminals are largely funded by landing fees and rents. If you build gates and nobody uses them, that will look poorly on the balance sheet. The future expansion of E is predicated on international traffic at Logan growing substantially over time. Massport should not get too far ahead of that curve.
 
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