Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

While your pedantic point that planes are not literally silent while landing is correct, the spirit of your post is wrong. They are in fact much quieter while landing:

https://www.broward.org/Airport/Community/Documents/Stage3and4presentation.pdf

The charts in that presentation show most modern planes are around 80-90 dB if you are directly under the approach. That noise level dissipates quickly to <80 dB if you are more than a quarter mile from the flight path. Also once the plane is 6-7 miles away from the runway the noise level drops below 80 dB. On the other hand, when taking off, the range of 80+ dB noise is much wider.

Absolutely; planes are quieter on landing than take-off. You have similar flap and landing gear positions at both. On takeoff you have the substantial addition of thrust generation (hence why engine designers have spent so much time and money on nacelle and nozzle redesigns - ala 787 chevroned design); on landing you have the addition of spoilers. Thrust generation >>> spoilers; hence takeoff is louder than landing.

As for:
as planes are "gliding" for a landing they have deployed all manner of non-aerodynamic appurtenances all of which interrupt or chaoticize the air stream. Some of messing with the clean stream of air is of course intentional such as flaps and slats and some such a wheels are needed for other functions

Not exactly; flaps' purpose is to increase the amount of lift per air speed at the known expense of added drag. Flaps make the wing more aggressive; their purpose is not chaotic interruption of the airstream; their effect on laminar flow beyond the boundary layer is just as important. Sure, Landing gear produces chaotic turbulence. Spoilers are designed primarily to burn off speed and also have a somewhat chaotic effect. None of these things come close to the effects of engine thrust.

Also of importance is that modern FADEC engine control systems (and improved control system bandwidth) have reduced the need for throttle surges to stay aligned with glide slope (a la 70's era DC-9s where you hear the auto throttle surging up and down as the plane attempts to maintain glide slope). Hence you hear less engine at landing than you used to hear with older planes.
 
^ Thank you, FenwayResident. The point is these days it really matters when looking at a flight path pattern whether you are looking at takeoffs, landings, or a mix.

In the old days, landing planes being manually controlled would change their thrust a lot more often (making revving noise) as pilots tweaked their path. Ideally now everything is locked in and engines are idled starting far out
 
^ Thank you, FenwayResident. The point is these days it really matters when looking at a flight path pattern whether you are looking at takeoffs, landings, or a mix.

In the old days, landing planes being manually controlled would change their thrust a lot more often (making revving noise) as pilots tweaked their path. Ideally now everything is locked in and engines are idled starting far out

True, and the only thing that messes with the locked in flight path is a change in wind direction (which does happen fairly frequently at Logan). Then all hell breaks out as they have to clear the pattern and get everyone in the stack realigned.
 
airport_WEB.jpg

Interesting. Look at that one flight that went over Beacon Hill, Chinatown, and the Fort Point Channel.

Are these all landing, all take-offs, or both?

Also, if they're all 33L and not 33R, then how is one going the other direction? Touch-and-go?
 
By the way -- Heathrow just got its new runway approved
according to the BBC
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37760187
Third runway at Heathrow cleared for takeoff by ministers
Transport Secretary Chris Grayling said the "truly momentous" decision would support trade and create jobs.

A wide range of unions and business groups welcomed the decision to expand Heathrow. TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady said it was "absolutely vital for Britain", while CBI chief Paul Drechsler said it would create jobs and boost economic growth.

Heathrow management said the airport was ready to deliver a third runway that was "fair, affordable and secures the benefits of expansion for the whole of the UK".
Now their NIMBYs can have their field day
Gatwick airport said it was disappointed with the decision, which was "not the right answer for Britain".

Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson - a vocal opponent of Heathrow - said a third runway was "undeliverable".

The MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip in west London doubted whether construction would ever start: "The day when the bulldozers appear is a long way off, if indeed they ever materialise."

Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, also said expanding the west London airport was the wrong decision for both London and the UK.

Greenpeace UK chief John Sauven said a third runway at Heathrow would increase air pollution and "be a waste of time, money and lives".
 
They're bulldozing three towns and digging a tunnel for a section of the M25 highway in addition to the actual construction costs of the runway. That work is being done with high cost labor (I would guess even it's higher cost than Boston). They will also need to pay to relocate residents and probably defend the project from multiple lawsuits/appeals. All of that adds up to an astronomical cost.
 
Britain--a nation of 65 million people and the 9th largest economy on Earth--has built just one full-length runway (in Manchester) since the invention of the passenger jet.

Take that, American NIMBYs. You'll never be able to compete with your cousins across the pond.
 
I wouldn't mind if I lived next to a tower or lived next to a tower being built. I would be infuriated if I owned property next to a proposed airport runway. I don't think that this is a case of crazy NIMBY's, it would have made more sense to build another runway at gatwick and add high speed rail to it.
 
Its been quiet on the additions lately - though I think we are going to hear something about Cork and Edinburgh on Norwegian by the end of the year.

Stockholm Arlanda has also made pre-clearance official for 2018. Other airports will be announced soon. Manchester UK is a given since it has been in their 2020 construction plans.

DHS has also chosen 11 other airports to investigate for a pre-clearance deal:

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/11/04...ted-possible-preclearance-expansion-following

Airports on the new list currently served from Logan are Mexico City, St. Maarten, Rome, and Reykjavik.

Having been to St. Maarten - I'm scratching my head on how they would build a facility there. Mexico City seems the most likely since a new airport is being built. Though it may be a while, Reykjavik would be a big help for Logan since you could move Icelandair to C and put WOW anywhere there's room.
 
SATA is up to 9 weekly peak summer for 2017 on BOS-PDL with a twist.

2 of these weekly flights will continue onto Barcelona and two will continue onto Praia - Cape Verde.
 
JetBlue has increased frequencies or extended season on many Caribbean routes with recent schedule update.

Barbados/Montego Bay/St Thomas will run on Saturdays throughout the summer per JetBlue's recent schedule update. Interesting to see if they run these in September/October 2017.

Port Au Prince will run 3-4 weekly during the Summer and the start coincides with end of school (mid June).

Dominican destinations
Santo Domingo - up to 9 weekly
Punta Cana - up to 4 weekly

The strange thing about Punta Cana is that Jetblue only serves Cancun, a much bigger market, weekly at this time of year.


Other adds
Sacramento will be bumped to 5 weekly peak summer (mid-June to mid Summer)
Pittsburgh going to 5 daily
Ft. Myers going to 5 daily for summer.
 
JetBlue has increased frequencies or extended season on many Caribbean routes with recent schedule update.

Barbados/Montego Bay/St Thomas will run on Saturdays throughout the summer per JetBlue's recent schedule update. Interesting to see if they run these in September/October 2017.

Port Au Prince will run 3-4 weekly during the Summer and the start coincides with end of school (mid June).

Dominican destinations
Santo Domingo - up to 9 weekly
Punta Cana - up to 4 weekly

The strange thing about Punta Cana is that Jetblue only serves Cancun, a much bigger market, weekly at this time of year.


Other adds
Sacramento will be bumped to 5 weekly peak summer (mid-June to mid Summer)
Pittsburgh going to 5 daily
Ft. Myers going to 5 daily for summer.

That's a lot of lift to Pittsburgh with 5 daily on JetBlue and I believe 2-3 daily on AA. For several years people over on Airliners.net were stating that Pittsburgh - Boston was one of USAirways' most profitable routes.
 
Passenger numbers up 5.1% in the month of October, YTD numbers up 8.2%. At this rate Logan will hit 36 PAX by the end of the year.

https://www.massport.com/media/414776/1016-avstats-airport-traffic-summary.pdf

Not Logan but good news for providence. Azores Airlines will start service from Providence to Porto next summer.

Just a random question, are the landing costs any lower at PVD or MHT?
 
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It's all about economy-of-scale. The routes that have a big hub or well-entrenched presence on at least one--if not both--ends are the ones that are going to have the best cost recovery. That means Logan is going to dominate to silly degree on cost-effectiveness, despite its competition for slots. When it's a regional served, the schedules skew overwhelmingly to places where the airline is entrenched enough to have the economy-of-scale to mix in some secondary destinations. That's why the bulk of flight schedules at Manchester, Bradley, and Green are dominated by the same big boys: American, Delta, United, Southwest, JetBlue. And in Bradley's case, also Air Canada.

It's a pretty brutal market to get established anywhere without a pre-existing base because of how that economy of scale works. For an upstart airline or first-time entrant into this region, Logan's sheer logistical bigness makes it a much safer and more cost-effective bet for planting the flag than debuting at a regional. If the route demand is compelling enough to earn any slots at Logan, taking out some nook-and-cranny at Logan is almost always going to be the way to go. The ones who do stake out territory at a regional first are usually out-on-a-limb niches that wouldn't make the cut for Logan slots but see something compelling enough in the business plan to try for regardless. That's how Green got its Azores and Cabo Verde presence, and that's how Bradley got into that brand new OneJet small-jet biz shuttles startup that began last year. (Note on Bradley: they've got a token Aer Lingus presence, but State of CT gift-wrapped the hell out of that deal to keep the so-called "International" terminal occupied). A winning niche can carve out some success there, and then make the bit player obligated to grow its presence at the regional. But it's a very precision target not for the faint at heart. Manchester has absolutely nothing but the usual suspects; they have not seen it worth their to go out on any limbs. Green is being a little more aggressive about taste-testing some alternative things. Bradley still wants "International" bragging rights and will dig deeper than others to incentivize more of the same.


That cuts against some of the conventional wisdom that regionals are an attractive starting point because of lower pressure for slots. The industry still goes top-down as to who has the biggest margins to make at a regional. And this in turn takes a lot of the air out of the conventional wisdom that "Ooh! Ooh! We really need to make Hanscom and Worcester into auxiliary Logans." No...we really don't, because the first actual leading indicator that we've got a serious airport capacity problem to address would be if Delta, United, Southwest are sapping up the current regionals with offloaded hub schedules...not a groundswell of little zit startups shut out of slots at Logan descending on Providence. Zits are still zits in a top-down industry, not the drivers.
 
yesterday I was in Logan for way too long and I was watching the runway for a couple of hours. From about 1-330, there was a wait of at least 7ish planes (think max was about 12) wait to take off the entire time. The planes were taking off on the minimum time interval and I' assuming that the other parts of the airport that I couldn't see were this busy too. This was on a day with very few delays (Except my flights!) and perfect weather at Logan and most major hubs.

So when the airport has this much of a backup, how many more time slots can be added without major infrastructure changes? Would the times be added at nonpeak times or is there room in the schedule that I'm unaware of? I would appreciate a source because I'm very interested in reading up on this!
 
yesterday I was in Logan for way too long and I was watching the runway for a couple of hours. From about 1-330, there was a wait of at least 7ish planes (think max was about 12) wait to take off the entire time. The planes were taking off on the minimum time interval and I' assuming that the other parts of the airport that I couldn't see were this busy too. This was on a day with very few delays (Except my flights!) and perfect weather at Logan and most major hubs.

So when the airport has this much of a backup, how many more time slots can be added without major infrastructure changes? Would the times be added at nonpeak times or is there room in the schedule that I'm unaware of? I would appreciate a source because I'm very interested in reading up on this!

BuilditDenser What was the wind doing -- Logan's runway configurations are governed by the winds particularly cross runway gusts

With its 6 runways [yes there is very short runway only to be used with props]

Logan can operate with 3 [120], 2 [varies], one only one runway [60] flights per hour [coming and going]

All capacities assuming ideal visibility

It can get to be quite a complex problem because spacing between planes depends on the type of aircraft as well as the winds

here's a Massport site with basics
https://www.massport.com/environment/environmental-reporting/noise-abatement/how-logan-operates/
 
By comparison Gatwick airport in London has over 40 million passengers a year using only one runway.
 

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