Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

[kmp1284]

Another pipedream. About the only things I could see happening in Europe in the next five years are Brussels and maybe Geneva, along with the possible loss of Madrid and Rome. If Boston still had the sort of premium domestic feed it did when American and Delta had major operations here I think there
be a lot more opportunity for growth, however with JetBlue, a largely budget oriented airline with no premium product and correspondingly little premium traffic there is far less money to be made than there was five years ago.

 

[BosDevelop]

Another pipedream. About the only things I could see happening in Europe in the next five years are Brussels and maybe Geneva, along with the possible loss of Madrid and Rome. If Boston still had the sort of premium domestic feed it did when American and Delta had major operations here I think there
be a lot more opportunity for growth, however with JetBlue, a largely budget oriented airline with no premium product and correspondingly little premium traffic there is far less money to be made than there was five years ago.

While obviously not a legacy carrier, can JetBlue for all intents and purposes really be considered a budget airline? I recently searched their site for a flight to Florida this winter and was shocked to see the fares in the $1,000-$1,200 range even with mid-week travel.

 

[datadyne007]

My bf just flew jB (the only airline I fly domestically) to Chicago and back (direct) for $219. Their prices range.

Furthermore, their services and passenger comfort don't only meet, but often exceed those of the legacy/premium carriers. jB's single class is better than some airlines' business class.

 

[mass88]

Is there direct service to Moscow? If not, 787 would seem like a good candidate to get it started.

There is currently no non-stop service between Boston and Moscow. I doubt we will be seeing it anytime soon either, 787 or not.

Boston is still a massive market to Europe. Boston is still a top market in the U.S. and few cities have the levels of service Logan does.


I don't think we'll see any carriers cutting services in the next 1-2 years. Iberia seems to have righted the market with the frequency reductions during the slower months. They were the most likely.

 

[bosdevelopment]

While obviously not a legacy carrier, can JetBlue for all intents and purposes really be considered a budget airline? I recently searched their site for a flight to Florida this winter and was shocked to see the fares in the $1,000-$1,200 range even with mid-week travel.

Seriously? Where are you flying into? West Palm/FLL/Miami? That's crazy expensive. I play a lot of golf over the winter down there. I can usually find tickets in the $300 range on JBLU.

 

[omaja]

Like to place a bet?

There will be Boston-Brazil service on or before July 2014.

I bet not.

For three reasons:
1. The Brazil-US is demand heavily concentrated on NYC and Miami; service outside of those two areas is largely driven by connecting traffic.
2. Boston is a poor geographic connecting point for US-Brazil traffic flows. Boston-Brazil is well served via NYC, Washington, Atlanta and Miami.
3. Traffic rights are very restricted to Sao Paulo, far and away the economic and cultural hub of Brazil. Secondary destinations won't be opened up until the Brazil-US bilateral agreement is amended or converted to open skies.

 

[BosDevelop]

Seriously? Where are you flying into? West Palm/FLL/Miami? That's crazy expensive. I play a lot of golf over the winter down there. I can usually find tickets in the $300 range on JBLU.

PBI. FYI the 6:00am flight was a more "reasonable" (yeah right) $450 each way. But it was $550-$600 each way for the flights at reasonable hours.

 

[jass]

I bet not.

For three reasons:
1. The Brazil-US is demand heavily concentrated on NYC and Miami; service outside of those two areas is largely driven by connecting traffic.
2. Boston is a poor geographic connecting point for US-Brazil traffic flows. Boston-Brazil is well served via NYC, Washington, Atlanta and Miami.
3. Traffic rights are very restricted to Sao Paulo, far and away the economic and cultural hub of Brazil. Secondary destinations won't be opened up until the Brazil-US bilateral agreement is amended or converted to open skies.

Look at the brazilian economic stats. The existing leisure/family market will lead to a strong business market as well. The personal connections (one of the most important parts of any business) already exist, and now the money is ramping up.

Unsure about the traffic rights issue. There are flights from the US to Manaus, Salvador, Natal, Belo, Brasilia and more so it cant be too much of an issue


The reason I mention the world cup is because it wont just lead to a huge number of brasilians travelling, but also millions of americans and europeans living in america. Besides the popularity of the world cup, Brazil offers something that South Africa or Russia dont....a huge incentive to travel and explore the beaches and rain forests and water falls.

 

[mass88]

Boston is home to a massive population of Brazilians. The problem with all the traffic flows between Boston and Brazil is that it would not provide good enough yields for such a long flight.

 

[choo]

Brazil's economy is rapidly stagnating this year. the US may grow more than Brazil this year. So it could make a tough jump.

with the complementary tech sectors, could you see a direct flight to India on a 787? Who would even fly something like that?

 

[kmp1284]

There have been rumors of Air India launching Boston with their 787's, should they ever take delivery. As for the continuing Brazil non-sense, yes, Boston has a lot of Brazilians. Unfortunately for them and for your argument, many, if not most lack the means and the proper credentials both to be in this country and to engage in international air travel.

 

[dshoost88]

PBI. FYI the 6:00am flight was a more "reasonable" (yeah right) $450 each way. But it was $550-$600 each way for the flights at reasonable hours.

If you're looking to fly down during the second half of November, then of course flights will be expensive... every airline costs a fortune during the holidays. But believe me, jetBlue is still an affordable airline.

I fly between FLL & BOS or PBI & BOS multiple times a year (I'm from Boca Raton, FL originally... 25 mins from both airports). For some reason unknown to me, FLL is usually $10 cheaper each way than PBI (which makes no sense), but even then it's never unreasonable. Yesterday I bought tickets to FLL for 9/25 thru 9/28 for $240 roundtrip.

jetBlue is awesome!

 

[omaja]

Look at the brazilian economic stats. The existing leisure/family market will lead to a strong business market as well. The personal connections (one of the most important parts of any business) already exist, and now the money is ramping up.

Are you talking as an aggregate or specifically BOS-GIG? Brazil-US is dominated by Miami and everything else pales in comparison. While Massachusetts is indeed home to a rather large population of Brazilians, that doesn't tell us where in Brazil they are from, nor does a large ethnic community automatically warrant a non-stop flight (i.e. Chicago and its enormous Polish population).

Unsure about the traffic rights issue. There are flights from the US to Manaus, Salvador, Natal, Belo, Brasilia and more so it cant be too much of an issue

Those cities are open skies already because, in no uncertain terms, no one really wants to fly there. Miami is pretty much the only city in the US where these secondary Brazilian destinations will work. The rest of Brazil-US traffic is heavily centered on Sao Paulo and Rio - something which won't be changing for quite awhile. And in terms of rights into Sao Paulo, they are basically nonexistent for the next few years. US Airways started Charlotte-Rio with a 500+ daily flight hub and has been trying to switch to Sao Paulo ever since it started. What makes you think any airline could make Boston-Rio work with negligible feed and a poor geographic location for connections? The Brazilian population in MA won't be anywhere near enough to profitably fill planes on a regular basis.

The reason I mention the world cup is because it wont just lead to a huge number of brasilians travelling, but also millions of americans and europeans living in america. Besides the popularity of the world cup, Brazil offers something that South Africa or Russia dont....a huge incentive to travel and explore the beaches and rain forests and water falls.

Not disagreeing with this, but it doesn't really point to an increased likelihood of BOS-Brazil services. Like I said, Boston has a plethora of one-stop connections to get to Brazil already. Boston-Sao Paulo and Boston-Rio will happen at some point as the market and ties grow; I just can't see that happening within the next 18-24 months.

 

[jass]

Are you talking as an aggregate or specifically BOS-GIG? Brazil-US is dominated by Miami and everything else pales in comparison. While Massachusetts is indeed home to a rather large population of Brazilians, that doesn't tell us where in Brazil they are from, nor does a large ethnic community automatically warrant a non-stop flight (i.e. Chicago and its enormous Polish population).



Those cities are open skies already because, in no uncertain terms, no one really wants to fly there. Miami is pretty much the only city in the US where these secondary Brazilian destinations will work. The rest of Brazil-US traffic is heavily centered on Sao Paulo and Rio - something which won't be changing for quite awhile. And in terms of rights into Sao Paulo, they are basically nonexistent for the next few years. US Airways started Charlotte-Rio with a 500+ daily flight hub and has been trying to switch to Sao Paulo ever since it started. What makes you think any airline could make Boston-Rio work with negligible feed and a poor geographic location for connections? The Brazilian population in MA won't be anywhere near enough to profitably fill planes on a regular basis.



Not disagreeing with this, but it doesn't really point to an increased likelihood of BOS-Brazil services. Like I said, Boston has a plethora of one-stop connections to get to Brazil already. Boston-Sao Paulo and Boston-Rio will happen at some point as the market and ties grow; I just can't see that happening within the next 18-24 months.

Mass Brazilians are mostly from the state of Minas Gerais, so Belo Horiztone, which is the 3rd largest city in the country with a metro pop of 5,497,922.

American and TAM currently fly there from Miami, and Copa from Panama. Also has a direct flight to Portugal.

Obviously Sao Paulo would be the first choice, and Rio second, but its not a terrible alternative. Has connections to every decent sized brasilian city and has local connections. Also is highly underused.



What I see happening is a flight between Boston and SP or Rio for the world cup, daily. Then moving to 2 times a week after that.

 

[omaja]

Where most Brazilians in MA are from is almost irrelevant - Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro are far larger commercial centers, which is what would generate sustainable traffic demand. BH may be third largest by population, but it is way behind SP, Rio and Brasilia in terms of each city's GDP. Again, the only US city that can support secondary Brazilian destinations (i.e. anything beyond SP and Rio) is Miami. BOS-CNF does not make sense from any airline's network perspective, aside from the demographic and geographic issues I've mentioned.

For the World Cup, we're more likely to see Delta/American/United/US upgauge their current hub flights to/from Brazil (along with corresponding domestic connecting routes from major cities like BOS) to serve the demand. Then, when it's over, things will go back to normal.

 

[jass]

Where most Brazilians in MA are from is almost irrelevant - Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro are far larger commercial centers, which is what would generate sustainable traffic demand. BH may be third largest by population, but it is way behind SP, Rio and Brasilia in terms of each city's GDP. Again, the only US city that can support secondary Brazilian destinations (i.e. anything beyond SP and Rio) is Miami. BOS-CNF does not make sense from any airline's network perspective, aside from the demographic and geographic issues I've mentioned.

For the World Cup, we're more likely to see Delta/American/United/US upgauge their current hub flights to/from Brazil (along with corresponding domestic connecting routes from major cities like BOS) to serve the demand. Then, when it's over, things will go back to normal.

I agree with the first part, I was just responding to someone asking where the local brazilians are generally from.


I think well see both, more flights and new cities. Boston being the biggest city lacking a direct flight to brazil (I think chicago offers one, right?)

(San francisco is too far away)

 

[kmp1284]

It's not quite TAM to Sao Paulo(sarcasm), but JetBlue has announced Charleston beginning in February, once daily. I know Delta was running this route through Delta Connection but that appears to have ceased. In other news, I may be eating crow on this one but Emirates is indeed rumored to have Boston on tap as their next North American destination to begin as soon as March 2013.

http://www.heraldonline.com/2012/09/12/4255597/wont-you-go-to-charleston-with.html

 

[choo]

I know (at least i think i do) that its not possible now given the terminal configuration to fly the Emirates A380 out of Boston now, but if they do the Terminal E expansion could this be used or is it a non-starter because of runway length, a la full 747 to Asia?

 

[kmp1284]

There's a fairly good discussion going on right now on airliners.net on the A380 in Boston. From that I gather it's a combination of three things keeping the A380 out of Boston - terminal, airfield and the market itself. If Massport can solve the airfield and terminal issues we might have a shot at seeing scheduled service but rather than Emirates(which I suspect will remain 777-3ER long-term) I would expect it to come from British Airways, Lufthansa or even Air France which seems to have stepped up its game re-introducing first class in October.

 

[mass88]

Emirates is going to continue their crazy expansion. I don't think it would be absurd to say that by 2015, they have non-stop flights to Boston, Chicago, Atlanta and Miami, in addition to NYC, Washington, D.C., Seattle, LA, San Francisco, Dallas and Houston.

There have also been rumblings that Turkish Airlines has Boston on their radar for non-stop flights to Istanbul.


380 service is becoming a measuring stick for an airport's clout I feel like. Personally, I don't care is Logan doesn't see 380 service any time soon. I would rather them continue to have one of the best varieties of European carriers and European destinations served non-stop.

But as has been mentioned, British Airways and/or Lufthansa would be the best bets to send the big bird to Boston.