MA Casino Developments

Unless its tuesday at 8 am, i wouldn't expect 1-2 dollar tables. And if there are student coming for that, Wynn isn't building a bridge for scratch ticket sales.
 
Arlington said:
Ok, now note how many Wynn Resorts are on the Monorail: ZERO

Some LV casino operators built a private monorail to ferry folks to the LV convention center. It went bankrupt. They're not doing that again. Not even to get it to the Airport. And Sullivan Square is in no way analogous to the LV Convention Center.

Meanwhile, Wynn built (by my count) 5 Resorts with no monorail access:
Wynn
Encore
Mirage
Treasure Island
Bellagio

His actions speak loud enough, but you guys have stopped your ears, unable to believe that a guy could amass a $3billion dollar fortune in casinos without knowing that he needs T access or must pay for yours.
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FYI, there is a Tram connecting Mirage and Treasure Island.

Carry on.
 
dshoost88 said:
FYI, there is a Tram connecting Mirage and Treasure Island. Carry on.
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Yes, basically a single-car horizontal elevator (note the tow cable), and, if proof of anything, that Casinos lavish all kinds of stuff on you as long as you stay within the closed system...in this case, another Wynn Casino (at the time of construction)
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For Steve Wynn to build you one of those, you'd have to let him build another Casino on the Boston/Somerville side of the river, then sure, expect one of these. 'Til then, think glossy black shuttle buses, and, if you lose enough, you'll get comped a limo ride home.
 
Ok... Not sure why this got so heated. Despite the vitriol, I do think everyone is making valid contributions.

What I'm taking from this conversation is that perhaps more folks will chose to take the T to a resort casino than I was expecting. If that is the case, I really think that the Everett location would need a major investment in that direction. Is this something that we can all agree on?

As to Whi's comments about everyone here being clueless - I'm not saying that traffic at the Everett location will be potentially horrific b/c the casino will generate such an insane amount of traffic. I'm saying that traffic on 16, at the Sullivan roundabout, and right on 99 are already horrific at times. My opinion; Any increase here should be carefully examined.
 
nico said:
What I'm taking from this conversation is that perhaps more folks will chose to take the T to a resort casino than I was expecting. If that is the case, I really think that the Everett location would need a major investment in that direction. Is this something that we can all agree on?
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No, because its basically the same flawed logic that concluded that IKEA needed to be at Assembly Square for the T access. If you thought this, you were wrong, and we need to learn from things like this.

And no, because it seems you're either proposing a tautology (That if major investments are needed, it would need a major investment) or just getting scared/excited by the though of major transportation investments. If it isn't a tautology, too much hinges on what you "was expecting" (which is un-revealed).

Cars will work. Wynn and his target market will be happy. No traffic jams will ensue, nobody will need to be paid off with transit infrastructure any much grander than a bus shelter on Rt 99.

Casinos are not like offices or apartments that fill and empty at rush hour...they don't create peak-time trips, they create slack-time trips (noonish and midnightish) as partly confirmed by Ron Newman's Columbus Bus success). Open 24 hrs and used by people who are not at work ('cept the employees, who will ride a bus), they aren't a "gotta be there when it opens" nor a "must leave when it closes" sort of venue, and no "crap, I'm going to miss the kickoff/tipoff/overture". In fact Casinos are famously "no clocks / constant lighting" to make you lose track of time. There's no 9 and no 5.

So first, Whi and Choo and I are trying to say, Casinos don't generate jammy auto traffic--they don't generate huge throngs, and they don't have a rush that overlays everyone else's rush. So cars will "work"...in fact for gambling trips at odd times, they work great. Unlike a show with a start-time, Wynn's Casino will hum all day, and you're free to come when traffic is light.

Pop Quiz: What day of the week sees the largest number of auto trips? Saturday! but they are spread evenly, so there's no teeth-grinding. Its busy, but it all moves along.

Second, y'all don't get the profound difference between preferring the T for work trips, and depending on it for all trips. If you have a car, Wynn wants you to drive it, and parking will likely be free. Driving your car is an easy way to show you have money to lose. A special outreach to the T-dependent is only going to get Wynn a less-rich-than-average clientele than he'd get by car or cab. Why would he want that?

Third, Choo nails is when he notes that Wynn isn't building a Casino just so he can get penny-ante $1 and $2 players, who appreciate the value of squeezing an extra trip out of a monthly T pass...the Keno parlors and scratch tickets bodegas have got that market sewn up. Wynn is selling glamour (with a u ;-) and escape...a destination and a resort.

Fourth, any who complain about the drive to Foxwoods are, lets admit it, complaining about the *length* of the drive, not the mode choice. Especially given a Central Artery that *is* free flowing at non-rush times, Wynn's Casino is like the Airport...only with free parking and no plane to catch....and in this, like IKEA Stoughton, so...

Fifth, take the two-part lesson of IKEA...(1) funky apartment dwelling, T-commuting, Mini-driving urbanites will drive when they need to to get to a unique venue and (2) the opening of the CA/T decongested north-south travel enough *at shopping times* that the Stoughton store serves the North Shore (IKEA aquired Assembly Square believing that "North" people would not drive to Stoughton...but CA/T opened and, voila, they did, and sold the site)

And, really, both IKEA and Wynn ask: if you can't be bothered to take a cab or Uber or Zipcar, how good/important/fun/free-spending a customer are you? Just as 99.99% of Prom Dates aren't going to accept "lets take the Green Line", neither does Casino culture [sic]. Basically the T+Casino market is a Venn Diagram with only Mike & Kitty Dukakis and maybe a few ArchBoston readers at the intersection.

Ergo, it will be many years before the lack of rail transit and pedestrian connections to the casino will be noticed in any commercially-significant way.
 
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davem said:
I still haven't heard an answer as to why people/tourists who take the T to do other things in town (symphony, concerts, museums, clubs, fancy dinners, sports, whatever) are going to not want to do that to go to a casino.

I also haven't seen an example of a casino in an urban area with a large transit riding population for comparison.
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But doesn't the casino as entertainment venue have entirely different characteristics from what you describe, with lots of people going to it right before a show starts, and leaving it right afterwards?
 
Ron Newman said:
But doesn't the casino as entertainment venue have entirely different characteristics from what you describe, with lots of people going to it right before a show starts, and leaving it right afterwards?
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No. The purpose of the shows is to get you to gamble--get you on site, either early or to stay late (and maybe book a room). The shows have a curtain time, its true, but the venue is set up to keep you fully busy and fully on-site before and after (in a way the BSO or Theater or Ballgames are not)
davem said:
I still haven't heard an answer as to why people/tourists who take the T to do other things in town (symphony, concerts, museums, clubs, fancy dinners, sports, whatever) are going to not want to do that to go to a casino.
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See above. Restauarants have reservations. Concerts and Ballgames have ticket-times. Transit is slow but gets you there for the rush in and rush out. There's no rush at Casinos, so the schedule-freedom of cars can dominate, and the fun will start whenever you get there (as at IKEA...only without a closing time and with a shorter drive), and unlike transits far-apart late headways, your car (or a taxi) is ready to leave when you are. That's why.

On Dave M. question of "Downtown" Casinos, I've only seen the New Orleans one (pre-Katrina), but saw no particular transit synergy. I was railfaning on the Trolleys thereabouts at rush hour (they pass right by the entrance) and saw no particular surge in or out. Partly that shows non-peak-ness, and partly I saw most people coming and going by cab or valet parking.
 
The plainville slots win is interesting in their rationale of saving the jobs at the track. A better sign and signal for Suffolk than Wynn. They must have felt strongly because I'm surprised it went there given the Native American proposal in Taunton and twin rivers in Rhode Island. That could be three facilities within 30 min of each other.
 
Arlington said:
no, because it seems you're either proposing a tautology ... or just getting scared/excited by the though of major transportation investments.

Whether or not I think a great % of folks will rely on the T to get to the casino is not something that I am debating. Some think they will, others not. There's no need to beat people up about it - it's only an opinion and I don't know for sure how things would actually play out. Instead, I'm responding to those who think that the T will be popular with the Wynn crowd by conceding the point. I am saying that "IF the argument is that the T will be a preferred method of getting to the casino for many; this location might not be a good one - even with a foot bridge."
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Whoa, Arlington, hold up! The comparison of the Wynn casino to the IKEA is apples and doritos. I don't even know where to begin knocking down that red herring. First of all, going to IKEA on the T isn't super practical if you're getting bulky furniture to take away. Many people acknowledged that. Meanwhile, going to the casino on the T has no such logistical drawbacks. You can dress well, arrive easily, leave when you want. Nobody is carrying flat packed billy bookshelves home from the casino. Second, the IKEA never actually happened, so we can't actually say it wouldn't have worked. Maybe it would have worked. Maybe urbanites taking the T to IKEA would have picked out what they wanted and opted for delivery. Whatever the case, IKEA didn't pull out of Somerville because they realized they were allergic to transit.

I can't believe I'm wasting so much typing on such a ridiculous red herring. For heaven's sake, if the casino is subway accessible, people will take transit to get there. In a city like Boston, where more than half of tourists come without a car, and where taking transit to upscale events and destinations is common, Wynn is not going to institute a rather bizarre "you must have car to enter" policy.

From one side or another (Wynn, Assembly Row, Somerville, Everett, MBTA, etc) there will be a push for a comfortable walking connection to the OL.
 
Someone above mentioned a ferry dock on the Wynn property. Using that to run ferryboats over to Assembly Square would cost less than a new bridge and would be quite helpful -- especially if the boat service could also serve the Target/Costco shopping center nearby.
 
Shepard said:
Meanwhile, going to the casino on the T has no such logistical drawbacks.
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Except that the Casino, will not, in fact, ever be on the T (rail)

IKEA and Casino are similar from a traffic-engineering standpoint:
Regional destination
Favored by upscale people with money to spend and having access to a car
Non-peak, non-rush,
Auto-synergistic.

In the end, you're free to talk about how awesome it would be on the T( people sure did about IKEA). It may seem obvious to you that IKEA doomed to fail (or be "outbid") as an OL destination, but it sure wasn't to transit boosters when IKEA pulled out. Transit boosters we dumbfounded. They (including me in my youth) had waxed enthusiastic about the same things with IKEA site as they are with the Casino...college kids will be all over that place! People furnishing their first apartment all love the T! IKEA would be crazy to give up that site! Etc Etc. We seriously thought that, just as erroneously as people now think a Casino is synergistic with transit.

But IKEA looked at the numbers and found another buyer with a better-and-higher use for their parcel...Assembly *is* worth more as TOD than as an IKEA. Residential and Commercial space *loves* transit to get them through rush hour.

The Wynn Site is worth most as an auto destination and adding transit would be a waste of $ because it would be "over-improving" the Casino (with transit) or "under using" the transit (with a Casino).

(F-Line has gone into great detail elsewhere on how Commuter Rail literally cannot stop behind Target...the bridge's grade is too steep. ANd the Urban Ring will either go up rt 28 to Wellington or up rt 99). If the Earhart Dam gets its pedestrian overpass, it'll be for bikers and Costco's side of the tracks, and there's no natural patronage for Casino+Costco bike trips)
 
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Ron Newman said:
Someone above mentioned a ferry dock on the Wynn property. Using that to run ferryboats over to Assembly Square would cost less than a new bridge and would be quite helpful -- especially if the boat service could also serve the Target/Costco shopping center nearby.
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If that's what you're going to do, why not spend the money on a curving ped bridge over the river and tracks with clearance for boats? Run it right into the bridge over the tracks at the station...
 
IKEA: Favored by upscale people with money to spend and having access to a car
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1) IKEA's cheap particle board build-it-yourself mass-produced furniture isn't upscale. It's aspirational, and it's for the same people who shop at the walkable Target in Somerville and the walkable West Elm in the Fenway, just to name a few.

2) The idea that everyone with the means to do so owns a car and will drive it defies statistics. If it was true, car ownership in Beacon Hill, the South End, the Back Bay, and the North End would be approaching 100%. It's less than 50%.

Now, I have no idea if Wynn will, can, or should build T access, but it's hardly a straight up no. We don't even know much about the casino beyond some early marketing materials. He says it'll be a luxury resort, but what does that even mean? I mean, have you ever heard a casino say it's anything BUT luxury? Its not a word with any meaning in this context. Personally, I'd assume the fact that this is sited on a former chemical plant waste dump in Everett tells you at least a bit more about the target audience than the marketing material does.
 
Equilibria said:
If that's what you're going to do, why not spend the money on a curving ped bridge over the river and tracks with clearance for boats? Run it right into the bridge over the tracks at the station...
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Whose money?

But the answer is, if you actually price it out, a person and a little bit of equipment is cheaper than most structures, even if you have to run the shuttle "to infinity". Particularly at low or unproven passenger volumes.

This is why there's still a guy in a booth 24/7 where the Lowell Line crosses Rt 60. His labor, his pension, and his booth, extended *forever* are cheaper than building a tunnel. So too are shuttle drivers and their vehicles cheaper than almost any competing structure until volumes cause bunching and congestion
 
underground said:
1) IKEA's cheap particle board build-it-yourself mass-produced furniture isn't upscale. It's aspirational,
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So's a Casino--or at least the Casino doesn't want/need to be any less aspirational than IKEA.
 
Arlington said:
IKEA and Casino are similar from a traffic-engineering standpoint:
Regional destination
Favored by upscale people with money to spend and having access to a car
Non-peak, non-rush,
Auto-synergistic.
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What planet, exactly, do you live on? Even if your casino experience begins and ends with Vegas, you can't possibly deny the MOBS of people who cannot afford to be in casinos who frequent casinos. Have you ever been to a regional casino?? The crowd is middle/working-class or retired from the middle/working-class.

And for that matter have you ever been to IKEA? Nobody remotely describable as "upscale" shops at IKEA. It is the definition of budget conscious shoppers. College kids, recent grads, and immigrants are 90% or more of the clientele. Real "upscale"...

You take the wind out of an otherwise sound argument by making ridiculous assertions.

I don't disagree that the casino doesn't need transit and the casino owner is not going to spend a dime on building transit. However, if they build the casino near transit, then people will take transit to the casino.
 
So's a Casino--or at least the Casino doesn't want/need to be any less aspirational than IKEA.
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And that would preclude a T connection how? Is the argument that IKEA didn't build at AS because it didn't need the T connection? I think it's safe to assume it didn't happen for the same reason a lot of big box stores don't open in places where land is expensive as hell. And if it had opened, I can't imagine they'd turn the T stop away. I'd assume the same would be true of the Casino, and since Wynn is tied to his location and can't move to the burbs, if there was a way to get a T connection, he'd build it.
 
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