The Benjamin & VIA (née One Seaport Square) | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

I think why we're mostly all upset with the seaport is that it's made no attempt to continue the character of Boston's other neighborhoods. It's sterile, has no personality that makes it Boston and when you're there you might as well be in Anytown, USA.

For Bostonians we have that right and we're not incorrect. Perhaps what we're forgetting is that adding a different dynamic will give the city a broader appeal to outsiders. A neighborhood that is distinctively NOT Boston may not be a bad thing for a more general audience. I'd still take a new neighborhood that was a mix of cambridge/back bay/south end/allston/somerville and be quite content
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Again, I do not think you can say something has no personality when its probably less than 50% of what its going to be. I see plenty of personality in the final plans and judging by how packed the restaurants/bars are on the weekends, I do not think many care. Seaport has already become a go to place for 20-30 somethings and its only in its early stages.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Coming from DC, Seaport looks pretty familiar to me. Seaport seems to be shaping up as a perfectly fine axillary "spill over" zone for Central Boston. It will never really have the character or active street life to have the "bright lights big city urbanism" you find in DTX or Boylston Street. But, this will be a perfectly functional place to live and work. Basically, underutilized parking lots get replaced with mediocre urbanism that acts as a release valve for Boston's traditional core. Maybe not the greatest possible outcome, but still a win-win for the city as a whole.

Btw, I really like this project and it is one of the key pieces toward making this area feel like more of a neighborhood.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

falcon42 said:
Again, I do not think you can say something has no personality when its probably less than 50% of what its going to be. I see plenty of personality in the final plans and judging by how packed the restaurants/bars are on the weekends, I do not think many care. Seaport has already become a go to place for 20-30 somethings and its only in its early stages.
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More so than any other part of the city? It'd be interesting to hear your back round to see where these views come from
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Suffolk 83 said:
More so than any other part of the city? It'd be interesting to hear your back round to see where these views come from
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I don't understand how you can judge a brand new neighborhood, replacing parking lots, against other historical neighborhoods in the city. No matter what is built, they will never be able to import a historical "Boston" neighborhood in the Seaport. It had no real "bones" to begin with.

If they tried to build a bunch of little brick buildings it would be accused of a being a "faux Disney-Boston" kind of neighborhood. Frankly, the architecture here isn't any worse than new stuff in Fenway, Longwood, Cambridge, etc. It's just that those are filling in the gaps, and it's the rest of the existing cityscapes that make those neighborhoods feel more "Boston".

The closest comparison we have right now is the new development at North Point. I know that is barely along, but so far I think the Seaport has the better layout, the better overall plan, and the better architecture.
 
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Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

My background is in CRE. Born in and raised around the city and currently live in the city. Sure, I look at this more from a pro development point of view than a pure architecture point of view.

I've spent significant time looking through the final renderings and plans and I do think this will come together. Yes, it will be unlike any other Boston neighborhood, but that makes total sense. DTX, Brighton, Allston, Back Bay etc and others have been around for centuries and are being revitalized, not built. Seaport is being totally constructed from ground up. Its not going to have the old school Boston feel to it and that is not necessarily a bad thing.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

^ I agree with both you guys, just not nearly as positive about it. I agree we shouldnt judge until the final product is there but I think there's no way it'll be as good as it should have been
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

falcon42 said:
My background is in CRE. Born in and raised around the city and currently live in the city. Sure, I look at this more from a pro development point of view than a pure architecture point of view.

I've spent significant time looking through the final renderings and plans and I do think this will come together. Yes, it will be unlike any other Boston neighborhood, but that makes total sense. DTX, Brighton, Allston, Back Bay etc and others have been around for centuries and are being revitalized, not built. Seaport is being totally constructed from ground up. Its not going to have the old school Boston feel to it and that is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Falcon and the rest of the Jrs. -- despite what it looks like -- Boston is constantly changing decade by decade and each major change probably elicited the same kind of reaction that we are seeing today --

Just for a simple context:

What happened to "Olde Bulfinch"? they asked circa 1830's -- well the Tontine Crescent and the old wharf buildings were demolished and were replaced by the early 19th Century warehouses -- etc.

The Seaport can best be looked upon not as the analog to the Back Bay which was literally built from a clean sheet design -- but rather as the analog to the rebuilding after the Great Fire of 1872 burned up the former Mercantile warehouse and old residential areas located between Washington Street and the harbor
FranklinSt_ca1830_Boston_SimonsUPNE.png
[franklin St circa 1830]
WashingtonSt_ca1871_Boston.png

[Washington St. just before the Fire]
mapgreatfireof1872-1.jpg

After the destruction was cleared there were streets but for many many square blocks there were no existing structures

photofiregreatfire1872-3.jpg
bostonFire1.jpg
bostonFire2.jpg


Yet 10 to 25 years later nearly all of what we consider the "Granite Phase" of downtown Boston and the Financial District before the recent towers had essentially been built.

franklin_street_portfolio-285x200.png
[Franklin today]
SHORPY_4a13536a.jpg
[Washington St. circa 1910]

At the same time the Back Bay was being constructed and it became the new residential district of choice as the folks with the $ moved down from Beacon Hill. Lesser folks moved into the new South End and the poor moved into the once fashionable North End.

Today we have the Seaport as an obvious extension of the Financial District with some residences. However, simultaneously, there is also the drastic rebuilding of the Fenway and the repopulation of DTX. Soon to come the huge open areas of the old Rail Yards and the relocated and vastly reduced Turnpike Interchange area will be developed. East Boston has finally started to Renaissance starting from the piers and moving inward.

Sufice it to say that a lot of Boston will be built in the next 25 years, barring a global economic collapse.

Come back in 2050 and the current phase of construction of the Seaport / Innovation District will have just been the leading edge of the "New Boston." Barring some long-term decline, in 100 years the Seaport / Innovation District will be as "Olde Boston" as the Back Bay or Franklin Street one block from MT is today.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

It's funny to me that there is so much dislike and criticism of the development in the Seaport. I understand in the sense that many are purely upset with the architecture chosen (or lack thereof). However, as a "millennial', I will tell you that everyone I've talked to couldn't be more excited and bullish on the ongoing development. Sure rents are high, but if you think for one second that millennials aren't going to jump all over these buildings, you are mistaken. Seaport Square has already begun sending out pre-leasing emails for their two towers and even have leasing agents directly follow up with any inquiries. 100 Pier 4 is at over 96% right now.
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Exactly how many millenials can afford to live here? A handful? I make good money and I wouldn't dream of dropping the money on these places for rent and I certainly cannot afford to purchase.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

meddlepal said:
Exactly how many millenials can afford to live here? A handful? I make good money and I wouldn't dream of dropping the money on these places for rent and I certainly cannot afford to purchase.
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Meddlepal -- I saw something recently on the NECN Business News that the prime demographic for the lux stuff in the Seaport and DTX is empty nesters from the suburbs.

These are the folks whose kids are grown and gone and now they have big Mil$+ homes with big expensive to maintain landscapes in Wellesley and Weston and who want to spend their "golden years" in town for Symphony, the Ballet, Theatre, the MFA, etc.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

whighlander said:
Falcon and the rest of the Jrs. -- despite what it looks like -- Boston is constantly changing decade by decade and each major change probably elicited the same kind of reaction that we are seeing today
....
After the destruction was cleared there were streets but for many many square blocks there were no existing structures
...
Barring some long-term decline, in 100 years the Seaport / Innovation District will be as "Olde Boston" as the Back Bay or Franklin Street one block from MT is today.
Click to expand...

Man, it's right in front of your nose but you can't see it. It's not the buildings that define 'boston character' - it's the streets and the lots.

Yes, wood yields to brick and then to granite and to precast. Neighborhoods go in and out of fashion. Houses are repurposed as shops, and facotries become houses. All of that happens on the scale of decades, or generations at most.

The layout of streets and building lots changes much more slowly, if at all. Skyscrapers among cowpaths, etc. etc. And the character of those things is what people have in mind when they think of boston. Here are the characteristics of our most distinctive 'hoods that are absent in the seaport:

- a hierarchy of streets....it's not that they all have to be small and tangled, like they are downtown....in the back bay you have grand boulevards, residential streets, and service alleys woven into a thick matrix. But the point is that they complement eachother as a system and provide an intelligible character to the neighborhood

- many small lots in each block... in the seaport every building (nearly) is a 4-sided object in space, because the district was laid out as mini-superblocks. In 'characteristic' boston, you have 20 building in the same space, which lends itself to diversity and intimacy of scale. That's why the wooden north end of 80 years ago would have felt like it had the same character as the brick one built on top of it, which is what is there today. It's also why some of the best new projects are facadectomies (like atlantic wharf) that retain the scale of the original plan while accomodating the footprints and density in demand today. (you can hate the facadectomies for lacking architectural integrity, but I'm making a point about urbanism)

- 'squares' as focal are]as [/B. Think copley, maverick, the 'mall' behind the north church, etc. 'Characteristic' Boston is laid out square-to-square. It's not just that there has to be a plaza like maverick or a park like copley (and it DEFINITELY doesnt need to be square) .... what defines the boston square is a focal intersection of streets, with place-making public space. And there are major ones & minor ones ... e.g. there are at least 5 squares in the harvard square neighborhood. In the north end, they don't even really have names - but you can just look for where people naturally congregate, even if its the size of a large living room - its still recognized as a 'central place'. By contrast Seaport square is a 'square' for marketing purposes only. Where is the 'center' of the seaport district? What are the 'sub-centers' for each corner of the neighborhood? There's no there there...

So because of all this the Seaport is MUCH more like charles river park than it is like the back bay or anywhere else (even the Pru mall simulates these characteristics reasonably well from the perspective of a pedestrian, if you think of the mall hallways as covered streets) .. Granted, the Seaport was was a 'blank slate' in a way that CRP definitely wasn't .... but in terms of what got laid out (more important that what got built ) we're still looking at (stumpy) towers in a park...the only difference is the ratio of tower-to-park is much higher in the seaport than in CRP.

And now it will be that way for a century and more , because its much easier to replace or remodel a building than it is to re-plan a built-out district
 
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Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

CSTH said:
The seaport is more like charles river park. Granted, it was a 'blank slate' in a way that CRP definitely wasn't .... but in terms of what got laid out (more important that what got built') we're still looking at (stumpy) towers in a park...the only difference is the ratio of tower-to-park is much higher in the seaport than in CRP.
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WTF?!? I was with you for the rest of your post, but I don't think there is a single building in the Seaport that could be described as a tower in a park.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

^ i'm trying to say 'more like towers in a park than like characteristic boston urbanism', not 'a literal example of towers in a park. What I have in mind is buildings as free-standing objects, with ubiquitous green buffer space ... i.e. free standing buildings in negative space, rather than contiguous building that collectively define positive space.

See also:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.349...4!1s8aZajQkCg4P1nwQX617SDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.347...4!1sAVUDjVVLIuq4m3S_3TnLAA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.352...4!1skroJuuNG-2hViCNMIh7KLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.349...4!1sJ5dhvCbhNPESfEi-5oVQ1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.347...03&h=100&yaw=94.074074&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656

and compare to:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.363...4!1skBmVdhPoHRlHTPhztVRFDw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.365...4!1sd6rZo1LiFXO8ckBxq_n9Jw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.357...4!1sdcCK5277JrNDQSeFHrKldw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.350...4!1s6gvWQeJth5CYj17BPg1jQQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

etc. etc.
 
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Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

whighlander said:
Meddlepal -- I saw something recently on the NECN Business News that the prime demographic for the lux stuff in the Seaport and DTX is empty nesters from the suburbs.

These are the folks whose kids are grown and gone and now they have big Mil$+ homes with big expensive to maintain landscapes in Wellesley and Weston and who want to spend their "golden years" in town for Symphony, the Ballet, Theatre, the MFA, etc.
Click to expand...

In that case, someone has been giving those poor souls some bad information.

Why would empty nesters want to be stuck in the Seaport with all those loud millennial targeted bars/restaurants when they could live in the Fenway/Huntington area and walk to those attractions you listed?
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

shmessy said:
In that case, someone has been giving those poor souls some bad information.

Why would empty nesters want to be stuck in the Seaport with all those loud millennial targeted bars/restaurants when they could live in the Fenway/Huntington area and walk to those attractions you listed?
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Being close to the water is a huge draw for a lot of people, especially empty nesters.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

CSTH, well said, agreed. By its generic qualities and retail-sized proportions, the Seaport will seem un-Boston-like to most of us but will likely seem familiar to our out-of-town visitors - business, tourist and student - and it may succeed on those terms. Most other cities, after all, build like this and call it successful urban design. We don't. We know better.

The Seaport is a disappointment for us locals for the opportunities lost. So it seems. However, it's not a complete loss. Much is still to be created. We have time. The call for better design and human scale is being heard. Should we have asked for higher standards after the vast expenditure of public funds? Yes. Absolutely. Then again, the first out of the gate is rarely the most inspiring in any realm. Are some decisions (highway-like streets) permanent? Yeah. Unfortunate. No argument. Is it altogether too late? Hopefully, no.

A tipping point of activation may yet be reached. Us naysayers may be surprised in the end.

We have a burgeoning new part of town - that is unlike, for better and worse, any other part of town. I guess we can live with that, as long as there are people on the streets and a diversity of activities (still to be seen). Either way, it will be surrounded by Boston. Maybe we'll rub off on it?
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Im fine with it because in a way its adds a new experience to Boston. We are king when it comes to the small nooks and crannies, street life, history, charm, all crammed together. We already have all of that and much more than any other American City. That is not going to change. We still have the back bay, north end, beacon hill...etc they aren't going anywhere.

This will just be a unique neighborhood to Boston and if people want the north end experience they can just go to the north end. This adds a new dynamic which I think is a positive because we have all of that already and then we also have something different to offer. I see it as a positive because it kind of broadens Boston. The people who want a brand new shiny retail destination with a great waterfront can go here. Then the people who want the old school charming waterfront destination can go to the north end. This just is adding diversity to an already great city.

When this is at full build out you will be able to walk along seaport blvd and stop at the multiple upscale bars/restaurants, movie theater, ica, sept 11 memorial park if you so choose. Then when you feel like finding a nook pizza spot surrounded by brick and mortar just make your way to one of the many places to do so. Also it seems that once built you will be able to just walk along the waterfront here and stop at dozens of upscale bars along the way and nice places to eat. There are a bunch of beautiful developments in the pipeline and this is honestly a huge positive to add a different kind of neighborhood to Boston which just so happens to already be loaded with many diverse great neighborhoods. All of our historic neighborhoods will still be there and then when you want to just go to a modern brand new shiny neighborhood with lots to offer you can make your way over here. Diversity is good and judging by many of the newly planned developments we are not getting 1 marina park drives here anymore we are getting some pretty nice developments now and there is still plenty of room to go.
 
Re: One Seaport Square | Parcels B-C@Seaport Sq. | Seaport

stick n move said:
Im fine with it because in a way its adds a new experience to Boston. We are king when it comes to the small nooks and crannies, street life, history, charm, all crammed together. We already have all of that and much more than any other American City. That is not going to change. We still have the back bay, north end, beacon hill...etc they aren't going anywhere.

This will just be a unique neighborhood to Boston and if people want the north end experience they can just go to the north end. This adds a new dynamic which I think is a positive because we have all of that already and then we also have something different to offer. I see it as a positive because it kind of broadens Boston. The people who want a brand new shiny retail destination with a great waterfront can go here. Then the people who want the old school charming waterfront destination can go to the north end. This just is adding diversity to an already great city.

When this is at full build out you will be able to walk along seaport blvd and stop at the multiple upscale bars/restaurants, movie theater, ica, sept 11 memorial park if you so choose. Then when you feel like finding a nook pizza spot surrounded by brick and mortar just make your way to one of the many places to do so. Also it seems that once built you will be able to just walk along the waterfront here and stop at dozens of upscale bars along the way and nice places to eat. There are a bunch of beautiful developments in the pipeline and this is honestly a huge positive to add a different kind of neighborhood to Boston which just so happens to already be loaded with many diverse great neighborhoods. All of our historic neighborhoods will still be there and then when you want to just go to a modern brand new shiny neighborhood with lots to offer you can make your way over here. Diversity is good and judging by many of the newly planned developments we are not getting 1 marina park drives here anymore we are getting some pretty nice developments now and there is still plenty of room to go.
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^^
Exactly. You can walk along the water from the North End, through the Greenway, Seaport, Fort Point and in to Southie for 5 very different neighborhoods and a different experience in every one, pretty neat for visitors and residents.
 
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