Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive - Parcel C | Seaport

Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

What do you mean by superblock? Fan Pier has a pretty standard grid with good connectivity. The buildings have large footprints and generally seem to be a full block each, but they don't hinder pedestrian circulation or urban connections.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

Shepard said:
What do you mean by superblock? Fan Pier has a pretty standard grid with good connectivity. The buildings have large footprints and generally seem to be a full block each, but they don't hinder pedestrian circulation or urban connections.
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I'm guessing that his meaning is it's not fine-grained.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

Coyote137 said:
I'm guessing that his meaning is it's not fine-grained.
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A large building by definition has a big footprint -- especially if its height is constrained by FAA restrictions, etc.

If you want a 500 K sq ft building with 20 floors then each floor is 1/2 and acre [25k sq ft]

If the lot is 250 feet deep then the building will span at least 100 ft along the street

If the lot is 125 feet deep then the building will span at least 200 feet along the street

Note that the one Fan Pier Blvd. shown on Google Maps Satellite Images appears to measure about 125 [Northern Ave] X 175 to 200 ft [Fan Pier Blvd]

There are certain types of applications which are highly conducive to BIG FOOTPRINTS

Including some things not easily fit into high rises such as warehouses and major manufacturing facilities

However, there are other examples which would be consistent with FAn Pier or Seaport Sq.


Big Labs -- e.g. the two Vertex buildings are optimized for the concept of a big open lab

Trading Floors

Hotels

None of the above fit easily into narrow lots

I'd expect that such considerations have influenced the design of the Fan Pier Buildings currently under construction

Perhaps before final build-out there might be a few in-fill narrow footprint structures
 
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Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

I understand the economics behind why the Seaport was built this way. Doesn't mean it not still shitty urban design.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

Despite the design of the Seaport (the days of large Back Bay and South End-type residential areas are all but dead in our cities, I'm afraid) I am grateful that we do not have the 10 story garages and blank walls built as building bases that many high rises in Chicago have. The height's there, but the pedestrian experience is creepy, deadening, and oppressive. While I enjoy the distance vistas, there's little else, apart from the main shopping streets, to recommend it while walking.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

A superblock by definition means more than one block. This new one takes up half a block...
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

kz1000ps said:
A superblock by definition means more than one block. This new one takes up half a block...
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KZ -- for the purposes of discussion -- the traditional superblock was a Pru like complex set on top of a original street grid - -think how the Javitts or Moacone Centers particularly as extended just sprawled across streets in NYC and SF or similarly in New Orleans, San Diego

Since there is no existing street grid in that whole area except for the blocks right along the Fort Point Channel or the Alphabet streets near Dorchester Ave -- the term Superblock hardly applies to Fan Pier

Once again for the purpose of the Vertex Bldg they wanted to have big floor plates for their labs and prototype production facilities
-- that means a big footprint
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

The above may be true, however the master plan was drawn up with the building footprints the size they are, as "office". Not lab.

That may have been in the cards for a long time, but the master plan was well before innovation became a Seaport calling card. They wuz always gunna be huge.

FAA and ROI dictated this long ago.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

SeamusMcFly said:
The above may be true, however the master plan was drawn up with the building footprints the size they are, as "office". Not lab.

That may have been in the cards for a long time, but the master plan was well before innovation became a Seaport calling card. They wuz always gunna be huge.

FAA and ROI dictated this long ago.
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These floor plates are comparable to major FIDidistrict Towers -- sorry to break it to you but there are not going to be many new Ames Buildings or Winthop Buildings
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

If we are just going to accept building design based on best possible ROI, I am not really sure why we should bother with this site. What is left to really discuss?

Yup, that sure is the most cost-effective design for that building, good job. Well done.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

whighlander said:
These floor plates are comparable to major FIDidistrict Towers -- sorry to break it to you but there are not going to be many new Ames Buildings or Winthop Buildings
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The behemoths from the 70's and 80's yes, but there is hope as we have seen slimmer designs proposed lately. Don't be sorry, because you're not telling me anything I'm not aware of.

No Statler, not give up, but also understand that we may need to accept it in areas where we either get a bit of a fatty because they are limited to 250 feet, and it's either said fatty or a vacant piece of land like was there for 50 years.

Building something 400 feet tall with 30,000 sf floor plates because they want 1.2m sf, instead of building it 600 feet tall with 20,000 sf floor plates with no FAA regs in place is still a valid argument. Or hell 800 x 15,000.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

I often refer to a Superblock as any development that is surrounded on all sides by public ways. This is opposed to multi-parcel blocks.

I believe this is what is being objected to. The full block building creates environments that are much maligned on these hallowed boards. Kendall Square being one of them, Seaport the newest. We love the multi-parcel block like Newbury street for its richness. Buildings are built by different people, for different reasons, with different materials, at different times, are allowed to touch, but still relate. The so called Superblock does not allow for that richness. The argument that the economics drives this is true ... but I would have to agree, the result is shitty urbanism.

cca
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

^^^
Well, by that definition all new Fenway buildings are superblocks, no?
Pretty good urbanism though. Not Newbury street, of course, but still...
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

Over that way you get to see the recent response to not wanting big boxes dominating entire blocks. You get a bit of a break from this (although artificial), you get the visual break up by changing elevations, stepping in an out from the street, changes in materials and colors, etc. to give the illusion of multiple buildings along the side of the road. It's an attempt to balance the money side with the visual and feeling on the street, and I for one applaud the effort and appreciate the benefit. Still not perfect, but I'm a realist and realize we will not be getting a lot of 50 foot wide or less new buildings along major avenues here in Boston.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

+1 for cca and statler

Argue all day long about blocks vs. superblocks, VE and ROI.

A walk around the blocks of the Seaport demonstrates that, if past is prologue, this area will never evolve as one of a significant experience for pedestrians, or a destination worthy of a trip to Boston.

Walking around the built environment across from Fish Pier is like walking in George Romero's Dawn of the Dead. One drab block of mega-restaurant frontage is followed by another block of loading docks.

Why? Because the lessons of architecture and planning, lessons even conveyed by neighboring Fort Point were not replicated on the waterfront. These lessons are made clear on this forum as posters looks at 315 on A and immediately recognize the possibilities of form and scale. As everyone looks at Congress St. doors on the street, sizes of spaces, and more. It's not rocket science.

One can argue that Vertex labs needed a large footprint. But Vertex has a 15-year lease, while the waterfront will remain as an invaluable, untapped resource.

As I've repeated for 15 years, with $billions in public investment I continue to think we can expect more.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

^ Do you see this residential building as contributing to the problem, or is it a step in the right direction?
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

I don't have a problem with 22 Liberty per se. My problem is the site, and the Seaport.

I'll also point out that from 2000-2010 the BRA stated that Fan Pier (and all large waterfront projects) were required to be 1/3rd residential density and no more than 1/3rd office density.

http://imgur.com/R6Ycf8V

I can't see how that is possible at this point with the predominance of office space.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

^^^
It all depends on how "creative" one might be in defining residential and defining 1/3rd.
If you count hotels as residential and count 1/3rd of all lots including parks and museums you can probably get there.
It's a case of adhering to the letter of a law while obliterating its spirit.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

Smartiro said:
^^^
It all depends on how "creative" one might be in defining residential and defining 1/3rd.
If you count hotels as residential and count 1/3rd of all lots including parks and museums you can probably get there.
It's a case of adhering to the letter of a law while obliterating its spirit.
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Wonder if they are overcompensating for the blunder that was the redevelopment of West End. Plenty of residential development there, but it's probably the worst neighborhood to live in downtown because of the poor planning and design and overemphasis on residential units.

Walk there on a Sunday morning in the wintertime, feels like Chernobyl.
 
Re: Twenty Two Liberty @ Fan Pier | 22 Liberty Drive | Seaport

^ I don't know if it's the worst neighborhood to live in. It depends on what you want from city life. For a lot of people, West End is a combination of easy access to city conveniences and a refuge from city unplesantnesses. It's essentially a high rise gated community. Not something I would favor(although I live in a suburb now) but I can see the appeal(then again, I live in a suburb now).
 
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