Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

type001 said:
Yeah, but it's only 750 feet and NIMBYs, false narrative, no more buildable land and then there's 1 Bromfield, Congress Street, TD Garden Towers, and the Harbor Garage project.
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... a hundred million dollars is a hundred million dollars. It's also 2 renovated high schools, 3 or 4 redone elementary schools, 250 $40k teachers' aides for 10 years. You don't turn up your nose at it.

Millennium can afford this because they're well-trusted, highly-financed, and the mid-rise portion of their proposal is absolutely immense. They looked at the office market and realized that they could build a wide 350' building and hit both the market for big-floor Class-A office space (that SST, say, missed) and still slap a thin 400' residential tower on top.

I've said over and over that it's not my favorite design, but it's the best-conceived project. In any case, I'm not sure I trust HYM to get started on time after One Congress' delays, and I'm not sure I trust Accordia not to go Fenway Center on us and build nothing.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

bigpicture7 said:
What a mess. Activist (you know who) wanted to make sure the gov got maximum $$ for that land, and now when a company is trying to pay maximum, it's being called bribery.

Ug. And the days roll on while that rotting vacant garage sits in the middle of our financial district.
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Yeah----Millennium using their extra 15 Million in tax breaks/incentives from the taxpayers concerning the success of Millennium Tower to help close the deal for Winthrop Garage:

How can you not stay ahead with these types of dealings.

Boston Commercial Real Estate is a very corrupt---cut throat industry in my opinion.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

TheRifleman said:
Yeah----Millennium using their extra 15 Million in tax breaks/incentives from the taxpayers concerning the success of Millennium Tower to help close the deal for Winthrop Garage:

How can you not stay ahead with these types of dealings.

Boston Commercial Real Estate is a very corrupt---cut throat industry in my opinion.
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If Boston turned $15M of tax breaks into $100M of additional purchase price, isn't that a fantastic investment? Dude, that's a 667% return, plus a Great Hall.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Equilibria said:
If Boston turned $15M of tax breaks into $100M of additional purchase price, isn't that a fantastic investment? Dude, that's a 667% return, plus a Great Hall.
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Then why not give everybody tax breaks or incentives? And dilute the currency into a worthless status. Every deal would make the state money.

Write checks to everybody for a 1million dollars keep the printing presses printing. No seriously the GOVT & State would make 1 Billion dollars in taxes with worthless paper.

No more system anymore: No more risk vs reward.
Owe yeah--the only tax breaks are to the group of people creating jobs. I forgot.

At least return the tax break or incentive if your project is out of the risk terriority.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

^ I think the whole point of tax breaks is investing in a potential return. How is that the same as printing money? Especially in the case of a vacant gov-owned garage that is generating no taxes right now (or, a hole in the ground at DTX, etc). If a company buys a piece of land and pays the full tax rate, they are under no obligation to do something society-benefiting with the property. The point of the tax break is to create a shared value proposition and influence the use of the property.

Take the specific cases of any of these proposed skyscrapers for this site. If I'm the developer and I owned the property outright (paying full property tax), why would I spend a dime on any features that don't generate maximum profit?

So, if I'm the city, I can sell the property outright and expect no features in return, or I can provide some kind of incentive and demand features in return. Either is fair, and neither involves "printing money."

What's not fair is corruption (e.g., taking bribes or giving tax breaks, with society getting nothing)
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The internetz and sarcasm don't always mix (sorry BP7). That's my karma for making fun of another forum member.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

bigpicture7 said:
^ I think the whole point of tax breaks is investing in a potential return. How is that the same as printing money? Especially in the case of a vacant gov-owned garage that is generating no taxes right now (or, a hole in the ground at DTX, etc). If a company buys a piece of land and pays the full tax rate, they are under no obligation to do something society-benefiting with the property. The point of the tax break is to create a shared value proposition and influence the use of the property.

Take the specific cases of any of these proposed skyscrapers for this site. If I'm the developer and I owned the property outright (paying full property tax), why would I spend a dime on any features that don't generate maximum profit?

So, if I'm the city, I can sell the property outright and expect no features in return, or I can provide some kind of incentive and demand features in return. Either is fair, and neither involves "printing money."

What's not fair is corruption (e.g., taking bribes or giving tax breaks, with society getting nothing)
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I'm going to make a point here and I hope you people get this.

This weekend I got a speeding ticket on the highway---Well deserved I have no problem in paying for the ticket but I'm cringing on my insurance rates going up over 5 years now because of a mistake.

Now the problem I have is my insurance company is Liberty Mutual. How do you like them apples. Because I was going a little fast on the highway my insurance rates will shoot to the moon. But the Commonwealth/BRA/Ex-Mayor give this company 60 Million in tax incentives to build an office building in the BACKBAY which was currently under 5% vacancy at the time.

HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE for the PUBLIC? How does an Insurance company actually add value in life? All they do is TAKE and even if you think you have a safe haven they just jack up rates across the board.

Biggest scam on the planet. That is why costs are so high.
But that's job creation.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

bigpicture7 said:
Sorry I meant it tongue-in-cheek. Trying to call out the ridiculousness of odurandina's assertion.
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i think when you're willing to pay triple the money of the 1 developer who actually followed the instructions set down by the BRA (Accordia), then the only way you can actually make it work is by dropping a gigantic fat box that covers nearly all the air above the parcel, produces a shade patch so large, that nothing else can ever reasonably be proposed for height on any of the neighboring parcels - yet, nevertheless, you succeed in selling the false narrative that this just has to be the actually value of the property (and everyone else is trying to rip off the poor people of Boston).... and you gain front runner status as finalist because of the political fallout (should the BRA attempt to say no).... That amounts to using a bribe to accompish what amounts to a political shakedown. I called it extortion.

Here's the sad thing; One developer is willing to bribe the city by offering to build 600 units, and the other offers to build iconic and ~350 units.... and yet another comes close to the high number in two towers. It's between these 3 players, imo (w/ the city including the 1, single iconic design to make it to the final round). The market for luxury housing, and thus the affordable housing that can be linked is a finite number. The city will get that cash via the MARKET of luxury housing all over the Seaport, Back Bay, Fenway, South Station, Back Bay Station and Kneeland St megaplexes in any case.....

You've gained next to nothing by building the wrong tower.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Time for little break for this thread. PM me with any new news and I will reopen it.
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

SouthEnder88 said:
Saw the old thread is on lockdown, so moderators merge threads as you see fit. In the meantime, title says it all!

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...hrop-square/2EBYO3m4ExcjSRP8h6D2VJ/story.html

Not shocked...and a bit sad we won't see Accordia or Lendlease, but they do have a good track record.
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I'm surprised they got picked right after we found out how shoddy a job they did in SF. Who knows if they'll even still be viable by the time they settle all the lawsuits that are sure to be coming.
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

I don't loathe it but I'm not really not a fan. The design seems so pointless and dated, not to mention it's going to look f.a.t. from a distance. not the most elegant choice but the ground level should be sweet and they did pony up good money
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

DZH22 said:
I'm surprised they got picked right after we found out how shoddy a job they did in SF. Who knows if they'll even still be viable by the time they settle all the lawsuits that are sure to be coming.
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It sounds like theyre blaming it on salesforce, so it may be them playing out the insurance money or who ever is the actual contractor.
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

stick n move said:
It sounds like theyre blaming it on salesforce, so it may be them playing out the insurance money or who ever is the actual contractor.
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From what I read, the tower had already sunk 10 inches before Salesforce started construction.
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

Constituents and activists turned this into a battle of which developer could offer more monetary value directly back to the city - and in that case, Millenium blew the others away.

"Iconic," publicly-engaging, inclusivity, etc, all took a back seat to City of Boston maximizing return on property value. Not saying I agree or disagree, but this is what the taxpayers wanted (at least those who spoke up), and this is what they got.

Could be a lot worse. Let's wish Millennium the best!
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

stick n move said:
It sounds like theyre blaming it on salesforce, so it may be them playing out the insurance money or who ever is the actual contractor.
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It's not necessarily MP's fault even if it's their building's fault. They may have a completely different structural/geotechnical team for this project. In fact, I'd pretty much guarantee it after the sinking story hit.

EDIT: The Globe includes the following:

"The BRA’s request for proposals specifically requested an observation deck, and Millennium’s plan does not include one, offering the Great Hall instead. The height of its tower exceed the 725 foot-limit that the Federal Aviation Administration has set for the area because of flight paths into Logan airport."

I hadn't heard the part about 750 feet before. I'd thought the BRA essentially said that all the proposals were 725 on the button.

FURTHER EDIT: Huh. From their proposal:

"In four of our Boston redevelopment projects, we had to demonstrate compliance with the legislative acts protecting Boston Common and the Public Garden; and at a projected height of 750 feet, our proposal will trigger formal review by the Federal Aviation Administration, as we previously encountered with Millennium Tower on Washington Street. We are prepared to undergo rigorous State Environmental Review and City Article 80 Large Project Review, and we understand the obligations of the myriad of other public agency reviews and community-based reviews...

The tower is 725 feet to the roof of the last occupied floor from the Devonshire Street base elevation, with an additional 25 feet of mechanical equipment rooms and roof equipment. The podium setback roof is 300 feet above Devonshire Street, and the roof of The Office Solaria wing is 275 feet above Federal Street."

So it will be 750. That would indeed be one foot taller than the Pru, and 3rd in the City.
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

This is fine, the BRA just needs to do its job and make them come back to the table when they have a more energetic design
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

DZH22 said:
From what I read, the tower had already sunk 10 inches before Salesforce started construction.
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^ I've read that many places as well. They'd had to "adjust" the sidewalks several times since the building opened - seems there was a lot of settling just within the first couple of years.

BTW, there's a whole other thread just on this topic, so let's try to resume this over there...

Maybe it's just the geek engineer in me, but I find this absolutely fascinating, and of significant interest to many of us on this forum because it highlights a really interesting developer dynamic: yes, it there are several totally viable ways to build a foundation for a tall, (very) heavy building. But when you're building a half+ billion dollar structure that is supposed to last 100 years, I'm sorry but you gotta err on the side of overdesigning the foundation. But, especially in today's hypercompetitive post-2008 building boom, every dollar saved on a less costly foundation scheme directly translates into profit into the developers pocket. Condo buyers / tenants/ etc / aren't even thinking about this...so it is total thankless "throw away" cost to build an overkill foundation...except that it's not!

The question for Millenium Partners in Boston is not whether they used the same architects (Handel), but, rather, who advised them on the geotechnical aspects of the project, and whether their operations in boston are carried out in the same way or not. It could be that they took a totally different approach here and there's no point in comparing. Only project insiders know for sure. But all I gotta say is: over design the damn foundation please.

As far as SF goes, they need to underpin that structure ASAP - even if it's not technically needed - because it will quiet the critics, put the residents/stakeholders at ease, and save them a boatload in legal expenses/settlements. My opinion of MP will dramatically improve if they act fast on making this problem go away.
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

Equilibria said:
The Globe includes the following:

"The BRA’s request for proposals specifically requested an observation deck, and Millennium’s plan does not include one, offering the Great Hall instead.
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This is not ok.
 
Re: Millennium Tapped for Winthrop Square Tower

Disappointed_Square.gif


Was really hoping for either HYM's site plan or Accordia's design. Would have loved to seen SHoP put something up here.

Oh well, let's get this thing rolling.
 
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