Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

[shmessy]

Are you arguing that putting out free public seating makes a space *less* usable by the public?

It all depends WHERE the seating is. Anyone with eyes can see the clogging up of that "Great Hall". Whoever was expecting to build Trump's wall with Mexico evidently got the contract to furnish this "Connector".

A pedestrian short cut through was the primary selling point to improving the urban experience . By throwing in all those obstacles (plaque in the artery) actually discourages people from using it. There are tons of building lobbies in Boston. Look at the picture.

Why do they put all the obstacles in the MIDDLE of the hall???? They could very easily have put seating, etc. on the sides.

They knew EXACTLY what they were doing by this action (and by not living up to the required by agreement public access hours and days as noted in the Globe article). They're being a bit too cute.

 

[DZH22]

I agree with most of that, but if the model is entirely dead then how come so many “markets” are doing just fine in Boston and elsewhere? As per my earlier reply in this post, at precisely the time I took the picture that served as catalyst for this round of the conversation, High Street Place Food Hall (literally across the street) was VERY busy. How do you explain that with *only* points you put forth? Millenium promised something they didn’t deliver - but something other developers (who WANT to do so) clearly can do successfully.

Honest question, are all the food options open in Winthrop yet? How many are there supposed to be? High Street Place has been fully open for a while with half a dozen vendors and regular events. For instance, here's the immediacy:

So are we comparing a fully open food hall with an established clientele and regular event schedule to a not-yet-fully-open public space? It doesn't seem like it's an apples to apples comparison today, and probably won't be for at least a few more months. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I have not gone inside Winthrop yet.

 

[Justbuildit]

There might be one or two slots not yet open, but the slate of restaurants is called The Lineup and they're currently open and selling. It's not particularly inspiring, but covers the basics from coffee joint, Mediterranean spot, vegetarian place, etc. From what I see on the website everything closes at FOUR PM and they're only open M-F...which seems like a massive unforced error on their part. The burger joint lists beers on the menu, so I need to bail out of the office for a little day drinking if I want a burger and beer?

The Lineup | Food Hall in Boston, MA

The Lineup, in downtown Boston’s newest urban

www.lineupandeat.com

High Street is open at least 6 days a week and stays open pretty late, so it gets good traffic from the after work crowd. The weekend programming is pretty good too, and ranges from kid friendly events to boozy DJ drag brunches.

Anyways, the connector could compete much better if they just expanded their hours.

 

[JeffDowntown]

There might be one or two slots not yet open, but the slate of restaurants is called The Lineup and they're currently open and selling. It's not particularly inspiring, but covers the basics from coffee joint, Mediterranean spot, vegetarian place, etc. From what I see on the website everything closes at FOUR PM and they're only open M-F...which seems like a massive unforced error on their part. The burger joint lists beers on the menu, so I need to bail out of the office for a little day drinking if I want a burger and beer?

The Lineup | Food Hall in Boston, MA

The Lineup, in downtown Boston’s newest urban

www.lineupandeat.com

High Street is open at least 6 days a week and stays open pretty late, so it gets good traffic from the after work crowd. The weekend programming is pretty good too, and ranges from kid friendly events to boozy DJ drag brunches.

Anyways, the connector could compete much better if they just expanded their hours.

The Millennium Residences at Winthrop Center website seems to be engaging in some false advertising:

"• The Connector brings together Boston’s best music, art, and culture"

 

[DZH22]

The Millennium Residences at Winthrop Center website seems to be engaging in some false advertising:

"• The Connector brings together Boston’s best music, art, and culture"

Change the word "brings" to "will bring" and it would buy them a little bit of time. I still contend that the usage will improve once the park is open, and then over the next few months as people start to adjust their habits and put this spot into their regular rotations.

 

[dirtywater]

Honest question, are all the food options open in Winthrop yet? How many are there supposed to be?

I have heard that a full service restaurant is in the works for the space and possibly a few more food hall type operations in the future.

 

[shmessy]

Honest question, are all the food options open in Winthrop yet? How many are there supposed to be? High Street Place has been fully open for a while with half a dozen vendors and regular events. For instance, here's the immediacy:

View attachment 49773

So are we comparing a fully open food hall with an established clientele and regular event schedule to a not-yet-fully-open public space? It doesn't seem like it's an apples to apples comparison today, and probably won't be for at least a few more months. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I have not gone inside Winthrop yet.

Placing all those bulky pods, sofas, desks, fortress walls takes up room that would otherwise be there to allow for greater amounts of humans (simply look at the photo in post #7,387 - but hey, at least they restrained themselves from using Jersey Barriers!) . It's patently obvious what the intention is.

But once again, the point is that "The Connector" was NOT primarily sold to the city and the public as being a food hall or entertainment venue, but a valuable connection/shortcut to make downtown more navigatable for humanoids making their way through a very dense (overbuilt/buildings close to each other) area of the city - or to gain shelter during rainstorms or hot sun days. It's a quality of life type of thing.

 

[shmessy]

There might be one or two slots not yet open, but the slate of restaurants is called The Lineup and they're currently open and selling. It's not particularly inspiring, but covers the basics from coffee joint, Mediterranean spot, vegetarian place, etc. From what I see on the website everything closes at FOUR PM and they're only open M-F...which seems like a massive unforced error on their part. The burger joint lists beers on the menu, so I need to bail out of the office for a little day drinking if I want a burger and beer?

The Lineup | Food Hall in Boston, MA

The Lineup, in downtown Boston’s newest urban

www.lineupandeat.com

High Street is open at least 6 days a week and stays open pretty late, so it gets good traffic from the after work crowd. The weekend programming is pretty good too, and ranges from kid friendly events to boozy DJ drag brunches.

Anyways, the connector could compete much better if they just expanded their hours.

"......Anyways, the connector could compete much better if they just expanded their hours."

They.......don't........want.......to.

Their actions with this "Connector" or "Great Hall" is almost a protest against the city for having to do it. Their limited hours of operation and throwing up of obstacles throughout the hall (OBVIOUS from the pic in post #7,387)to limit the numbers of people using it is the equivalent of Marshawn Lynch's Super Bowl press conference:

 

[DZH22]

But once again, the point is that "The Connector" was NOT primarily sold to the city and the public as being a food hall or entertainment venue, but a valuable connection/shortcut to make downtown more navigatable for humanoids making their way through a very dense (overbuilt/buildings close to each other) area of the city - or to gain shelter during rainstorms or hot sun days. It's a quality of life type of thing.

They can literally do that less than 100' away at 75-101 Federal, which has been available as a public cut-through for at least the last 20 years.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

If you're talking about people gaining shelter, I think having some nice benches and couches to sit on is actually a positive thing and not a negative thing. Also, if people didn't have anywhere to sit and eat we'd be saying that it is unwelcoming from the perspective of being a food venue.

You can't sit and eat your meal on jersey barriers. So it's like, do we want people to cut through as fast as possible, or do we want people to linger in the space?

 

[shmessy]

They can literally do that less than 100' away at 75-101 Federal, which has been available as a public cut-through for at least the last 20 years.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

If you're talking about people gaining shelter, I think having some nice benches and couches to sit on is actually a positive thing and not a negative thing. Also, if people didn't have anywhere to sit and eat we'd be saying that it is unwelcoming from the perspective of being a food venue.

You can't seat and eat your meal on jersey barriers. So it's like, do we want people to cut through as fast as possible, or do we want people to linger in the space?

BOTH!!!!! The hall could walk and chew gum at the same time, DZ. There could be plenty of seating AND fluid area for walking. You keep making excuses for this obstacle course - - but why did they sell this as "The Connector" if you're now suddenly saying, 'yeah well 75-101 Federal.....'. People here were excited (and I don't remember anyone complaining at the time of any redundancy to 75-101 Federal that you now bring up) about what the Connector was promising. They sold it because they knew the city and its people wanted it. Now you're making excuses for the render lying along with the 4pm closings and the weekend lock outs. I'm sorry, but that's some serious pretzel twisting. But, yeah, it's tall.

Those chairs/fortress walls/desks, etc. dominating the middle of that "Connector" are obvious to anyone looking at post #7,387.

C'mon, where there is smoke there is fire. Obstacle placement in the Hall, getting rid of the rendered soaring arches, changing the color tomes from bright, lively/varied to muted beige/brown, the 4pm food closings, the weekend lock outs.........To most people reading this, it's obvious what the management of this building is doing and why.

Boston is a living city that should be different from Houston - - it should be dynamic, alive and world-class 24/7......not 9am-4pm M-F. It's something that doesn't show from a skyline hill view 5 miles away, but it is important for a world-class city, not some tall version of a Potemkin Village.

 

[FortPointer]

The Great Hall (later renamed "The Connector") was sold to the public as much more than a public passageway. Upon winning the bid and through 1.5 years of Millennium's dog-and-pony shows, the Great Hall was sold to the public as an exceptional, world class civic and cultural destination. Programming was the #1 priority. Deeply-subsidized stalls would be provided to local food vendors (not concepts by a single NY-based restaurant group). Large entrance doors would be removed during warmer months. The Great Hall was sold as an attraction that would bring new life to Winthrop Square, an area of downtown that had already been desolate for years. Raising inactivity around Winthrop Square post-COVID as an excuse for what's being provided is nothing short of an apologia for the routine failures of Walsh-era BPDA to convert commitments into obligations. Read the Management and Operations Agreement signed this year, through which BPDA Director Jemison was able to salvage whatever was possible; a far cry from what Millennium claimed it was delivering, even after being allowed to quietly dumb down the original vaulted ceiling design. Downtown could've benefited greatly from the Great Hall as it was presented. But as we've witnessed elsewhere on prime real estate, mediocrity reigned supreme.

 

[DZH22]

People here were excited... about what the Connector was promising.... Now you're making excuses for the render lying along with the 4pm closings and the weekend lock outs. I'm sorry, but that's some serious pretzel twisting. But, yeah, it's tall.

I don't remember people still being "excited" by the time this was turned into the Connector. They were excited for the observation deck which didn't happen. They were excited for the Great Hall which didn't happen. But the Connector? It's meeting our expectations of being nothing special.

However, my "excuses" remain that I refuse to fully judge a space until it's fully finished and open. That includes the park that should enliven the area directly by the front door. I'll come check the place out during my favorite month, October, with the assumption that it will be ready for a proper "judgment" by then. Even then it will take a few visits at different times/days, to see how it feels with different sized crowds. It would also help to attempt the experience from the points of view of somebody wanting to stop for lunch, somebody wanting to use it for shelter, and somebody wanting to use it as a pure efficiency connection.

The tower itself is pretty good. Nothing amazing but no brutal elements either, with solid enough glass. It's timeless and inoffensive, and I love to see it lit up at night. It wasn't my top choice (Accordia) but since the FAA ultimately prevented it from reaching 700' every one of the proposed towers would have had to be cut down anyway. So I'm happy enough from that standpoint anyway.

I used to work a couple buildings over, right on Federal Street. I know the area well. If it can better activate Winthrop Square in particular it's already a win, and maybe then the crowds will also filter throughout and onto Federal. The jury is still out until we experience the actual finished product.

 

[BosDevelop]

which has been available as a public cut-through for at least the last 20 years.

I worked at 75/101 in the 90s and it was a public cut through back then. I think it is closer to 30 years.

 

[FortPointer]

It's meeting our expectations of being nothing special.

Our expectations were "nothing special?" That's revisionist history in my view, even within the general theme of ArchBoston posts as I recall. The claim by Millennium and BPDA when the name changed was was that nothing about the function of the "Great Hall" as a signature civic/cultural destination had materially changed, only the design and dimensions.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Our expectations were "nothing special?" That's revisionist history in my view, even within the general theme of ArchBoston posts as I recall. The claim by Millennium and BPDA when the name changed was was that nothing about the function of the "Great Hall" as a signature civic/cultural destination had materially changed, only the design and dimensions.

Anybody with any design sense knew the Connector would never be the Great Hall (which could never exist in that site anyway) (regardless the BS pronouncements of Millennium). 1/3 of the Connector is dedicated to vertical height change ramps.

 

[shmessy]

Anybody with any design sense knew the Connector would never be the Great Hall (which could never exist in that site anyway) (regardless the BS pronouncements of Millennium). 1/3 of the Connector is dedicated to vertical height change ramps.

And it barely is even a "Connector" - - they clogged the artery. Look at the render vs the reality. There's alot of massing in reality that never existed in that render. They put alot of effort into creating that traffic jam. Gov Christie would be proud.

 

[FortPointer]

Anybody with any design sense knew the Connector would never be the Great Hall (which could never exist in that site anyway) (regardless the BS pronouncements of Millennium). 1/3 of the Connector is dedicated to vertical height change ramps.

Perhaps you mean anyone with design sense that failed to understand the magnitude of programming subsidies that were on the table. The "height change ramps" and vaulted ceiling have little to do with the success or failure of the space as it exists today. The space could be decluttered and activated with high-caliber public events. The real failure here was in BPDA's willingness to allow the most meaningful programming subsidies, as well as food stall subsidies and other activation strategies, to be jettisoned. Hat's off to BPDA for holding Millennium down on hours of access and at least some programming subsidies. I'm here just to remind others what was promised but never delivered, and also to recall that Winthrop Square was as desolate in 2016 as it is today.

 

[Justbuildit]

Fortpointer, thanks for joining the conversation on this website. I've also been following this closely but would be interested in your take on what you mean by "promised" versus generally disclosed in a filing. Are the previous claims enforceable by BPDA or under contract law? Should they be? Clearly the operating hours issue was in an enforceable contract and the BPDA letter clearly did enough to get the hall open.

To be more succinct, what could be done, in your opinion, to avoid this from happening in the future?

I'd also withhold judgment on the success of the development until known tenants move in and the park is open. But yes, currently not up to expectations.

 

[DZH22]

Our expectations were "nothing special?" That's revisionist history in my view, even within the general theme of ArchBoston posts as I recall....

You joined Archboston on 12/29/2022. We would have had the news about the Connector by 2018/2019. The downgrade from the Great Hall to the Connector was a deflating moment, and I'd argue THE deflating moment. But we've had 5 years to realign our expectations, and whether or not it ultimately meets those expectations has yet to be determined.

 

[FortPointer]

Fortpointer, thanks for joining the conversation on this website. I've also been following this closely but would be interested in your take on what you mean by "promised" versus generally disclosed in a filing. Are the previous claims enforceable by BPDA or under contract law? Should they be? Clearly the operating hours issue was in an enforceable contract and the BPDA letter clearly did enough to get the hall open.

To be more succinct, what could be done, in your opinion, to avoid this from happening in the future?

I'd also withhold judgment on the success of the development until known tenants move in and the park is open. But yes, currently not up to expectations.

Virtually nothing that the developer committed to in the winning bid, or presented in public meetings over the course of a year-and-a-half, as it regarded programming subsidies to be directed to the Great Hall (or later The Connector), was codified into enforceable legal agreements until after the project was permitted. Some of it was in one or more Cooperation Agreements. CA's aren't signed until after projects are approved by BPDA Board. As far as I'm aware, the hours of access weren't in any agreement until the M&O agreement signed by BPDA and Millennium in January 2024. It's BPDA's job to convert commitments to obligations.

To DZH22's comment, "You joined Archboston on 12/29/2022:" I used to be active around a decade ago as "Sicilian." And I followed the conversation during Winthrop Square permitting.