The Hub on Causeway (née TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

[Ron Newman]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

but the current escalator faces towards the TD Garden. Why would there be any need to change that?

 

[datadyne007]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

but the current escalator faces towards the TD Garden. Why would there be any need to change that?

From what I can tell they are trying to diminish Legends Way. They are flipping the escalators so that they exit directly to Causeway which has all the new retail, the new North Station entrance and escalators up to the new TD Garden lobby. It's definitely the right move for this configuration if they've abandoned the (much preferred) direct access path. It will just require commuters to change their habits.

 

[underground]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

I don't think the elevator/CR access is the end of the world. Remember that exit isn't just going to be for getting to the CR anymore. Now it's CR plus a bunch of new stuff on that side of Causeway. Seems like the location is convenient for both.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

I don't think the elevator/CR access is the end of the world. Remember that exit isn't just going to be for getting to the CR anymore. Now it's CR plus a bunch of new stuff on that side of Causeway. Seems like the location is convenient for both.

It's a big deal because it's another (predictable and inevitable) dumbing down of the project by sacrificing the non-revenue-generating benefits for the public. When this project was initially announced, it gave North Station an indoor shopping concourse with a glass wall fronting Causeway, and it finally rectified the illogical lack of an interior connection between all the modes at North Station.

Now, we have a couple of restaurants, a (desperately needed) grocery store, and the Bruins pro shop all opening onto a pedestrian walkway open to the elements, with the subway access around a couple of corners from the entrance to the station.

This is the purpose of negotiating with developers over things other than height and shadows: protect those elements of the project that don't make them revenue but make the effort as a whole acceptable and useful to the City. Walsh and Menino both folded on this one. There's no reason that the station couldn't have had both direct indoor access to the Commuter Rail (and don't forget the enormous arena that sits on top of it, BTW, which hosts only Winter sports), and also included a Causeway St. headhouse.

 

[underground]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Looks like the glass canopy on "Champions Way" is still there. And I'm not sure how the current proposal isn't better than what's currently there. As is, your only option is walking down "Legends Highway," which isn't exactly a thrilling experience. With the current proposal, you walk the same distance sure, but it's under a canopy with shopping. And that's if you're going to the CR, which as I mentioned earlier, a smaller percentage of people will be doing once this, the Nashua towers, and the Lovejoy complex open up. This exit has to serve them as well; not just the CR station. Forcing the exit directly into the station doesn't do that. In fact, that would actively be a pain in the neck for people going any where BUT the CR, whereas the current configuration serves both purposes fine. So yeah, bare minimum, this isn't the end of the world. I think it actually makes a good amount of sense.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Looks like the glass canopy on "Champions Way" is still there. And I'm not sure how the current proposal isn't better than what's currently there. As is, your only option is walking down "Legends Highway," which isn't exactly a thrilling experience. With the current proposal, you walk the same distance sure, but it's under a canopy with shopping. And that's if you're going to the CR, which as I mentioned earlier, a smaller percentage of people will be doing once this, the Nashua towers, and the Lovejoy complex open up. This exit has to serve them as well; not just the CR station. Forcing the exit directly into the station doesn't do that. In fact, that would actively be a pain in the neck for people going any where BUT the CR, whereas the current configuration serves both purposes fine. So yeah, bare minimum, this isn't the end of the world. I think it actually makes a good amount of sense.

No doubt it's better than what's there, but I would dispute that the choice was between losing the direct connection and having no project. The connection was included in initial submissions to the BRA as well as some designs from later in the process. It was axed to save the developer a buck, since it doesn't directly make money for them. The City should not have let that happen, but they fell asleep at the wheel. Also, a glass canopy is real nice for rain, but not terribly useful when it's 15 degrees outside for half of March, as was the case this year.

Also, you missed my point. You could have had both entries. It's true that at the completion of development not many people will be going from GL/OL to CR, but a whole heck of a lot of people will be going from GL/OL to the Garden. You're now making all of them make the full U-turn also. Of course, the arena's owner is totally cool with that, because they also own all this retail that they're forcing attendees to file past.

 

[Arlington]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Whether above ground or below,the problem here is that they're forcing everyone out to Causeway before "letting them back in", so that regardless of what level it is on, they have to walk a 360 rather than have a straight shot.

I'm not sure your green line is right. Take another look at the basement level. I think the u-turn happens underground, and people come up the escalators facing Causeway. The connection to North Station is 2 right turns once they are aboveground.

That's correct. You can see the dotted "X" indicating open to below where he drew the green route coming up from underground.

You are right--but it seems a needless expense to re-orient the escalators. I don't see how a counter-clockwise 360 is any better than a clockwise one, when the real issue is forcing all the U turns. Here is a corrected view:

but the current escalator faces towards the TD Garden. Why would there be any need to change that?

It seems a waste to me. If they really cant get the diagonal path by nipping a loading slot and a small amount of retail, then the real fix is to move the entrance further out on the sidewalk, {EDIT: can't go parallel to Causeway, needing only a 90 degree right because of "upper" green line tunnel below}

 

[fattony]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Maybe I'm looking at this from a different perspective. I think the escalators oriented toward the street dumps people onto (and collects them from) Causeway Street. That is an open, outward facing connection to the city and it works well enough for everyone. It is not exactly inconvenient.

The older drawing that Data reposted on the previous page has the escalators oriented toward the NS entrance. To me that inward facing connection indicates it is primarily for commuters using NS and visitors to the Garden. Access to the streets and the rest of the neighborhood get a more circuitous path.

I don't think either one is significantly better or worse than the other, though I slightly prefer the current orientation. The original was a little better for commuters making a beeline to/from work. The current plan is a little better for people living, working, and shopping in the area.

 

[underground]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

I would dispute that the choice was between losing the direct connection and having no project.

I don't think anyone said that, did they?

It was axed to save the developer a buck, since it doesn't directly make money for them. The City should not have let that happen, but they fell asleep at the wheel.

Is this anything more than speculation?

a glass canopy is real nice for rain, but not terribly useful when it's 15 degrees outside for half of March, as was the case this year.

Sure, full enclosure would be nice, but this is less than 100 yards, and again, an improvement over current conditions. A major burden and failure? No.

You're now making all of them make the full U-turn also.

Sorry, but a full u-turn is a burden? I make full u-turns all day. Am I some sort of bad ass?

Again, in summation: put the pitchforks down. The end times are not neigh. This project is an epic improvement on what's there currently, and this "problem" is an infinitesimally small issue.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Again, in summation: put the pitchforks down. The end times are not neigh. This project is an epic improvement on what's there currently, and this "problem" is an infinitesimally small issue.

I'm not holding any pitchforks. I like this project. It is pretty stupid, however, that we're going to end up with one of our two passenger rail terminals and the city's primary arena having a subway station in its own basement and yet having no direct indoor connection to it. The project might be an epic improvement from an aesthetic and retail perspective, but from a transportation standpoint (and this is supposed to be a transportation hub for the city) it's an epic fail.

And yes, a 100-yard walk in the freezing cold is a burden, especially if the alternative was a single escalator, indoors.

 

[Arlington]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Sorry, but a full u-turn is a burden? I make full u-turns all day. Am I some sort of bad ass?

Am I free to impose more U turns on you? If we're building for the next 40 years should we let them drift casually and un-remarked upon into our traffic patterns?

Again, in summation: put the pitchforks down. The end times are not neigh. This project is an epic improvement on what's there currently, and this "problem" is an infinitesimally small issue.

North Station commuters have seen their commuter trains pushed northward and their Subway oriented southward in a series of "not that bad" changes, when what should be happening is that the network should be getting more tightly knitted over time.

It at least needs to be called out. I don't think they'd have let a developer push all the red line entrances out of South Station and facing only Dewey Square.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

After looking at the renderings I'm not sure how this will look as a final product.
I think some people will love it and some of us will hate it.

I would have liked to see a more old fashion style development for this project especially since Lovejoy is coming to life. (like Liberty Mutual New development seemed to keep the Backbay style)


This project might look better on the Greeway next to IC, IP and Russia Wharf or maybe the Seaport

 

[underground]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Am I free to impose more U turns on you?

In all honesty, I LITERALLY might die. As I have zero perspective, I can safely assume that a few more u-turns could put me past the point of no return.

 

[type001]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

I don't hate this design but it seems to be a lost opportunity to use such a landmark parcel. Looking at this I see a poor mans TimeWarner Center. The design isn't bad, lord knows it's better than a lot of what's going up around the city, but it is in a place that NEEDS a great gateway building to the city. This isn't it.

I respect your opinion, but I was never in awe of TWC. They are rather boring glass twin towers. I think Garden Proposal has variety and much more depth.

 

[Arlington]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

I have zero perspective,

Got it.

 

[underground]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Sorry to distract from the usual Archboston doom saying circle jerk.

 

[chumbolly]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Seems to me that the thing to do is have the greenline to commuter rail connection below grade, under those loading docs or nearby, connected to a set of elevators in North Station. And then keep the greenline headhouse configuration they've proposed. It would give the heads down commuters a direct, sheltered connection, and put all the Garden visitors out on Causeway.

 

[tmac9wr]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

I respect your opinion, but I was never in awe of TWC. They are rather boring glass twin towers. I think Garden Proposal has variety and much more depth.

Yea I actually like this better than TWC, although it would have been cool to have TWC's height.

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Could it be that the developer wants people to have to walk outside? Not to save money but because it puts more foot traffic in front of Boston Properties retail tenants. Not saying this is good or bad, just speculating.

 

[Arlington]

Re: The Boston Garden (TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

Could it be that the developer wants people to have to walk outside? Not to save money but because it puts more foot traffic in front of Boston Properties retail tenants. Not saying this is good or bad, just speculating.

I'd say this is the most likely design motive (maximizing foot traffic, linear store frontage and rents), sure.

The developer is going to push you to meander around the retail as hard as the developer can. (Worst case, they do a multi-story spiral ramp with retail on both sides like at the Stratosphere Las Vegas). I'm asking that transit and pedestrian advocates push back.